Greece accuses Macedonia of expansionism

24th March 2011, Comments 88 comments

Greece accused Macedonia Thursday of "irredentist and expansionist ambitions", urging the UN's highest court to throw out a case concerning a dispute about the ex-Yugoslav republic's name.

"The irredentist propaganda of our neighbour is a major issue of concern for our country," Maria Telalian, legal counsel for Athens, told judges of the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

The two countries have been at loggerheads since Macedonia proclaimed independence from the former Yugoslavia in 1991, with Greece insisting that the use of the name Macedonia implies a claim on Greek territory.

Macedonia filed an application with the court in November 2008, claiming Greece was violating its rights by blocking its membership of NATO pending the resolution of the name dispute.

It asked the court to order Greece "to cease and desist from objecting in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to (Macedonia's) membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation nor any other international multilateral and regional organisations and institutions of which (Greece) is a member".

But Greece said its neighbour had "irredentist and expansionist ambitions", has adopted "a nationalist tone", and was "increasingly provocative".

"Throughout their history, the Balkans have known violent conflict through ethnic confrontation," said Telalian, adding that further outbreak was a "constant concern".

She said the court had no jurisdiction in the case and should throw out Macedonia's request.

Macedonia was recognised by the United Nations in 1993 under the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

More than 120 nations, including Russia and the United States, have recognised the landlocked Balkan country under its constitutional name: Republic of Macedonia.

The hearings continue until March 30, after which the judges will retire to consider their judgment.


© 2011 AFP

88 Comments To This Article

  • AntFod posted:

    on 15th August 2011, 08:44:44 - Reply

    The claims we can understand but we can't accept. I personally cant accept the history mutation and alteration, the missleading and the propaganda. The problem is not an ethnic problem, its not a problem of demand, of pride, of fear.... its nothing of all that... the problem is merely historic....As a teacher of history, that studied it in Greece, Italy, France and elsewhere cant accept claims that the only gold is to build a new nation inbetween Greece-Serbia and Albania... finding a new ID it cant be by mutating the DNA of the history, the language that great men of the past spoke...or even a state with a 60 year old language-history, a mixture of many different respectfull nations trying to come out of the communism state of Tito and trying to become a historic nation with all means... Even the language of Fyrom, is wellknown to filologists-historians that is a Bulgarian language in which where added in 1950 greek, albanias and serbian words... THE PROBLEM is about history...no nationalism... So read that.... http://www.skopje.gr/index_historians.htm
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 5th April 2011, 18:15:23 - Reply

    @peter
    Incidentally, your own evidence about Greeks contradicts itself. First you claimed we are Slavs. Then you claimed Albanians..

    I do not believe in pure races.. The biological record in every country shows people have mixed DNA. Intermarriage between ethic groups is normal and offspring eventually decide what they identify with.

    The bottom line with Greeks is no matter what some individuals like to claim about Greeks we still speak Greek (and have records of our Byzantine ancestors doing so prior to the Greek revolution.....leading all the way back to antiquity).... we have modern DNA evidence that shows a biologically connection to ancient Greek populations (not purely of course)....... we live in the Macedonia (not ancient Paeonia like you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians) and on a very practical level we probably share more in common with our ancestors than any people on earth (given the source of much of western culture). In short... we identity with Hellenism not Slavisim. (like the Alexander the Great...skis.... in FYROM)

    I don't mind if the historiography of Greeks is questioned but the thing about those that smugly criticize is typically they have have far far less in common with their claimed roots than we do. Curiously they do not spend as much time looking in the mirror.

    For instance, a funny thing about you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians is you (nor your apologists) ever seem to ask the simply question...why don' t you want to speak some dialect of Greek like ancient Macedonians did?(rather than a Bulgairan dialect the communists renamed Macedonian) Or why do you hate Helllenism? I seem to recall ancient Macedonians loved it. And why again don't you call yourselves Greeks.... just like ancient Macedonians did? (see ancient Olympics were they self-identified as Greeks)

    The entire basis of your "Macedonian" identity seems to be purely some sort of vague racial mixing argument (completely ignoring the last 2000 years of history). In short, you (and your apologists) on some level equal identity purely to race and ignore the cultural element that's also part of it (somewhat like the Nazis did).
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 5th April 2011, 05:17:47 - Reply

    It would be true to say that Misirkov wished to create a "Macedonian" nationality but he freely admitted his ethnic roots were Bulgarian (on many occasions). I posted verbatim quotes by Misirkov that he himself attests to his own ethnic Bulgarian heritage ("macedonian" in the ethnic Bulgarian sense much like Greeks were Macedonians too but not in some ethnic sense). Picking only the quotes you want to hear while ignoring those you don't want to hear won't make them go away. Hiding from the truth won't change it. The sooner you come to terms with your ethnic Bulgarian past (to enable you to trace your real ethnic roots), the sooner we can put this nasty business behind us and move on to other issues like our economies.


  • Rick posted:

    on 5th April 2011, 05:09:57 - Reply

    Nice Peter. You use Bulgarian names like Postol and Solun for ancient Macedonian cities like Pella(The capital of ancient Macedonia) and Thessaloniki (named after Alexander the greats sister).

    It seems you are a new nation that are very confused about your identity. You need to sort out your recent Bulgarian past. All your heroes from Tsar Sauil, Saint Naum, Kuber , Milidanov brothers where all Bulgarians (just open any history book outside of Fyrom) that used names like Solun and Postol(the same as you). Not one sentence in your fabricated history can be verified by real historians. That is why 400 accredited historians from world class universities are protesting against Fyroms historical propaganda


    "We belong to the same Slav people."
    Slobodan Casule, (born 1945), Foreign Minister of FYROM, to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria Solomon Pasi, in an interview to "Utrinski Vesnik" of Skopje on December 29,2001.

    "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century (AD)... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
    Kiro Gligorov, (first democraticaly elected president of FYROM, referring to the citizens of his country), Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992

    "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and our language is closely related to Bulgarian. There is some confusion about our identity."

    Gyordan Veselinov, (Referring to the citizens of FYROM) Ottawa Citizen, February 24, 1999

    "Macedonia was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The Macedonian language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these “radical Slavic factions” decided to live with their myths and lies for the constant amusement of the rest of the world..."
    T.J. Winnifrith, "Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments", Duckworth,1995.
  • Peter7260 posted:

    on 5th April 2011, 00:17:23 - Reply

    @ Herodotus;
    In the book"The Vlahs"The history of the Balkan people on page 139,T.J.Winifrith says;"One of Greeces first and best Prime Ministers was John Koletis,a Vlah who dressed like a Turk and had been court physician to Ali Pasha"
    On pages 119 and 120 same Author says"Elswhere there is a further source of confusion with massive immigration of Albanians into Greece-this is the true identity of the Modern Greeks"
    In the days when Modern Greece was molded into a nation Vlahs,a latin speaking people,and Albanians were the primery sources of raw materials for the"making "of the Modern Greeks.
    In the Popular Science Monthly J.McKeen Cattell,published in 1915 on pages 41 and 42 we read:Most of the old Greek race has been swept away,and the country is now inhabited by persons of Slavonic descent.Indeed there is a strong ground for the statement that there was more of the heroic blood of Hellas in the Turkish army of Edhem Pasha than in the soldiers of King George.
    On the issue of Misirkov;the Bulgarians make the claim that he was a Bulgarian.The truth is,he was not by any means.Bulgaria is fabricating the historical truth,no less than the Greeks.You must be reading Bulgarian history,that even in the 21st century they cannot decide from where their ancestors came to this area.Recently,the father of Bulgarian history suggested"our ancestors are not from the Volga area as previously thought,our ancestors came from Persia and Afganistan"
    Herodotus,the Bulgarians suggested to Macedonia to celebrate the Macedonian revolutionaries together,Macedonia declined.Both Greece and Bulgaria are fabricating history for obviouse reasons.self preservation.
    Why in the world are the Bulgarians and Greeks insist that the Macedonians are one of you,how can that be?Is it possible for one ethnicity to be both?It is absurd claim by both of you.Have a nice day
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 4th April 2011, 19:38:28 - Reply

    @Z

    I'm glad that even you recognize the contridiction between past and present US British policy. Greeks are astonished by this apparent lack of principles on the matter too. (one reason there is growing xenophia in Greece so many hide that fact)

    FYROM's recognition was a direct result of it sending troops to Bush's war for fake WMDs in Iraq . It happened"coincidentally" shortly thereafter when Bush recognized FYROM

    Hats off to FYROM Nazis though. Assisting in the murder (and probably torture) of innocent Iraqis that had nothing to do with 9/11 and did not have WMDs and that have NEVER attacked their country.... worked out for them. They gained recogition. (While Greece was punished for sitting out Germany, France, Canada, and most of the rest of the world)
  • HerodotusHistories posted:

    on 4th April 2011, 19:29:02 - Reply

    @Z

    I really don't care what Greek haters like you believe. You clearly show symptoms of severe biases against Greeks if you can't see blatently obvious attempts by FYROM nationalists to usurp Greek history, symbols and territory. (including on this very thread which should give a hint just how big a problem this is)

    Do you see it as a "human right' for a state to have a civil war then its govenrment to oppress its Bulgarian heritage while attempting to usurp the identity and territory of its neighbour? Some might call that attempted genocide you know.



    Here is the full text (from the US Secretary of State at the time)

    "The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.

    The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of "Macedonian Forces" against Greece."

    "The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.

    - U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26 Dec. 1944
    http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

    .....

    Here is a quote pulled from British House of Commons debate back when the FYROM government officials were claiming not to be related to ancient Macedonians and many smugy ignored our warnings they would change their identity and start claiming Greece as "occupied".


    “President Kiro Gligorov may argue that he cannot control the publications of political parties, but I believe that the adoption of the sunburst emblem of Vergina, recently discovered in Greek Macedonia on the coffin of Philip II of Macedon, the father of Alexander the Great, is a wilful act of authorisation of that claim. If hon. Members wish to empathise with the strength of feeling about that emblem, it is as though the thistle were stolen from the Scots and adopted by another country. It is an emblem, but it stirs up passions. President Gligorov has mounted an impressive propaganda campaign about that, which has deflected attention from some of the more substantial issues in that earlier dispute and, in great measure, has succeeded in casting the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in the guise of the little victim of the big bully, Greece

    Greece has no territorial dispute with the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It is almost unique in the Balkans in having no such territorial claims on any of its neighbours. Greece has demonstrated its desire to have policies of support and co-operation with its neighbours in that part of the world by its breakthrough in its relationship with Albania, on which both Governments deserve congratulations because thereby another potential flashpoint to the south of the Balkans was damped down. Greece is physically located in the Balkans. It wants nothing more than to achieve a similar relationship with the former Yugoslav republic, but it needs support to do so.

    It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina.” (House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602)
  • Herodotus945 posted:

    on 4th April 2011, 19:07:42 - Reply

    @Peter7260

    Actually during WW2 Britain helped Greece defend Macedonia from the IMRO Bulgarians that colluded with Axis (so some quote by some unknown soldier with an opinion, my guess out of context, is meaningless)

    Dude all you are doing is continuing to evade black and white evidence.... by your own national leaders, your own 19th century heroes. 3rd party scholars around the world, and even you own alleged experts.... that you used to freely self-identify as ethnic Bulgarians (and your language used to be called Bulgarian) Everyone remotely sane know ancient Macedonians were in the Hellenistic not Slavic culture/linguistic sphere.

    If you doubt that ancient Macedonians self-identified as Greks at the ancient Olympics you are are to come visit greek and read the Macedonian names found on ancient Olympic artifacts yourself.

    e.g.
    King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE.
    King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics,
    King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.
    Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd Olympics, in 328 BCE.
    Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.
    Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.
    etc...
    etc...

    Furthermore, you ancient argements are a red herring. No matter what ancient Macedonians were... what does that have to do with the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians who live in the ancient Kingdon of Paeonia today?

    "The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164


  • Peter7260 posted:

    on 4th April 2011, 12:26:58 - Reply

    @Herodotus;
    Your arguments on ancient history is flawed and missleading.
    Since you are claiming that you are connected to the ancient Hellens,you,yourself are not interpreting the history written in 338-337 bc by the very historians who recognised the difference between the Hellens and Macedonians.You fail to recognise the real history.

    Today,consecutive Greek governments jumped on the babgwagon
    and came up with ridicolouse cliches;"Macedonia is Greece,Macedonians are Greeks,Slav-Macedonians,Bulgarians"

    What Mitsotakis wanted to accomplish in 1995 is very amazing.
    Greeks are uneasy about the Macedonian minority
    Ex-premier of Greece Constantinos Mitsotakis in 1995 recognized that the problem with Macedonia was not the name but the Macedonian minority in Greece."From the moment I first saw it I recognized Skopjes theme in its true dimensions.What made me uneasy from the beginning was not the name of this country...the problem for me was how to avoid creating a second minority problem in Western Macedonia.If the problem of the Slavo-Macedonian minority in Western Macedonia is added to the Muslim minority,which sadly,with our errors is a dangerous development,the situation will become unsustanable for Greek external politics..."emphasized the former Greek Premier in the introduction of T.Skinalis book"For the Name of Macedonia"

    The announcement in the State Department report for Human Rights in 1991,for the first time mentioned the existance of a Macedonian identity in Greece,was of particular concern to Mitsotakis."It has always been Greeces aim to have Macedonia denounce the Macedonian minority in Greece and to force Macedonia to accept international binding agreements that a Macedonian minority in Greece does not exist and to cease all propaganda aimed at Greece,
    This was key for the Greek-Skopja defence, it is truly certain that after 1950 no such minority existed in our country,because the citizens with Slavic sentiments who fought on the side of the communist left at the end of the civil war"said Mitsotakis.

    Outside to official Athens however,there are some Greek intelectuals who have entirely different views on the name dispute.Athena Skoulariki a sociology professor at the University of Crete,for example says that Greece is tangled in a strategic dead end"In the course of the last 16 years we have lost one battle after another and still have not seriously considered what we are doing wrong. Why is the outside World not supporting the Greek thesis on this issue? Why after so many years of trying has Greece not succeeded in convincing the international public? asks professor Skoulariki.
    According to Skoulariki the Greek arguments are not convincing because it is a fundamental right of all people to freely choose their name.We insist that our neighbor has no right to use the name Macedonia,ignoring the fact that during the 19th and 20th century there was a wider region called Macedonia."

    Dr.Thomas Arnold,the founder of the school Ethos in the 19th century in England,suggested that fabricating Greek legends will profoundlly improve the English image,even more than the Greek image.

    David Holder was the chief foreigne corespondent for the London Sunday Times.He revealed in his book"Greece without Columns"that the Greek treasured assumption is a delusion and Greek legent wishfull fantasies"

    A Greek professor of archeology Manolis Andronicos wrote"Macedonia should be considered the cradle of human history"

    The English statesman William Ewart Gladston in 1892 said"Macedonia for the Macedonians"

    Captain P.H.Evans,on September,16th 1943,was dropped into Northern Greece as British liason officer.He became a station commander where he remained until October 1944.Captain Evans knew nothing about Macedonia,like all foreigners who had been hoodwincked by official Greek propaganda.
    He expected to find only Greek but instead he found a Macedonian World.
    He wrote"The Balkan region is Macedonia by nature and not Greek"
    He observed that the Greek language in Northern Greece was regarded as a foregne language and not the Greek were distrusted as something alien in the full sense of the word and viewed as foreigners in Macedonia" TO CONTINUE .....
  • Z posted:

    on 4th April 2011, 05:37:31 - Reply

    @Will Smith

    this is really funny.

    "What I do know is that both Great Britain and the US at the time FIRMLY supported Greece on this issue (claiming no such thing as an "ethnic Macedonian" existed AND supplying the weapons to
    kill IMRO terrorists). "

    this is your quote,... you do realise that the USA recognises Macedonia under it constitutional name, the Republic of Macedonia ? This is an immediate and FATAL contradiction. One the one hand they firmly support Greece, but on the other, they fully recognise the country as the Republic of Macedonia. lol

    i have a hard time, as im sure as everyone else does, in believing anything you type, when you can even get the most basic and fundamental arguments correct,.. its just really a shame, and doesn’t do anyone any good

    This is just another example of facts and truths being not important, people taking obscure views, and trying to pass them off as facts,… why even bother trying to come up with arguments when they are predicated on a deeply miss understanding of facts.

    All the Greeks have done is taken out of context extreme views, and in most time, out right, lies, and tried to frame a case for them self serving interests. It wont work, nothing but smoke and mirrors to distract people from the truth,… I guess the old saying “beware of Greeks with gifts” is well earned.
  • Herodotus945 posted:

    on 4th April 2011, 01:27:22 - Reply

    Incidentally... why do you hide the regional context to the term "Macedonian" back then if you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians aren't doing anything wrong? Here are the words of Misirkov you conveniently snip away to put context to his usage of Macedonia.

    "Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians"

    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”

    “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”

    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”

    “We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian."

    “The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[...] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

    “But now cries from the Macedonians can be heard: we are Bulgarians, we are more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves. …….. You could be victors over Bulgaria and impose on it all sorts of treaties but this cannot change our conviction, our consciousness that we are not Serbians, that up till now we have called ourselves Bulgarians and this is what we are today and this is what we want to be called in the future.”

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
    http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm

    There are the words of your own national hero. Hiding from them will not make them go away. Crying false tears of persecution will not make them go away. Nor will calling your Bulgarian dialect renamed "Macedonian" by communists enable you to read the Greek writing on ancient Macedonian artifacts. Nor will the region you live in (the ancient Kingdom of Paenoia) ever become the original ancient macedonia.

    All you are doing is causing unnecessary headaches between our two peoples (Bulgarians and Greeks) over a conflict that should have ended with the Balkan wars.






  • Herodotus945 posted:

    on 4th April 2011, 01:18:02 - Reply

    In antiquity Spartans killed Athenians too. Athenians killed people in Melos. Macedonians killed Athenians. and so on. However.,.. they ALL self-identified as GREEKS at ancient Panhellenic sporting events. This is an indisputable fact of history (attested to Macedonian names listed on ancient Olympic artifacts). You just change your own rules to ethnicity when it comes to their own self-identification.

    And sorry. I'm not buying your claims that me quoting your own national heroes (attesting to their own ethnic Bulgarian heritage) is "fabrications" The very fact you try to frame it that way rather than deal with direct evidence that they self-identified as ethnic Bulgarians attests to your own denial over your own past.

    Again here are the words of 3rd party anthropologist Loring Danforth. He is currently listed on a FYROM website MHRMI as a historical expert no? So are you claiming your own historical expert is a liar?

    "The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim.[...] The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians" ("The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995)

    Not only are you (mostly) ethnic Bulgarians not Macedonian. You are anti-Macedonians. If you were Macedonian you would want to be able to read the words writen on countless ancient macedonian artifacts.... Greek. You would give your cities Greek names (like ancinet Macedonians did). You would even call yourselves Greeks.

    Your teachers only taught you what their Tito era propagandists wanted them to know. I'd feel sorry for you if it wasn't for the fact you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians weren't a threat to Greece. (much like IMRO fascists and latter communists were)

    "The whole story about Ancient Macedonia sounds undoubtedly very nice. However, there is a great problem, a huge hole of about 2,000 years during which we have neither oral nor written tradition, nor a single scientific argument!” - former Prime Minister of FYROM Ljubco Georgievski, FOCUS, 31 March 2008




  • peter7260 posted:

    on 3rd April 2011, 23:53:46 - Reply

    as the Greek history is. My teachers did not teach one sided political history ... it was unbiased and based soley on the truth. Have a nice day!
  • peter7260 posted:

    on 3rd April 2011, 23:44:46 - Reply

    Reply to Herodotus;
    My dear fellow, you are jumping from one fabrication to the next.
    Instead of arguing on ancient history, let’s talk on today’s truth.
    You are classifying me as Bulgarian, yet on the other hand, you are claiming I am "Greek”. You see, both Greece and Bulgaria are claiming that we the Macedonians are same ethnicity as both of you. How is it possible for the Macedonians to be two different ethnics? Bulgaria claims, Macedonia is Bulgarian, Greece claims, Macedonia is "Greek".
    How can that be, and does it make any since for both to put such absurd claim?

    The Ancient Greeks knew the Macedonians were not Greek, they were not considered as such.
    Talk about the Olympics; You know very well, Alexander claimed to be Persian after the Macedonians defeated Darius. Alexander claimed to be Indian, so did Hellen. But does that mean he really was a Greek, Persian or Indian?
    You are not reading history right my dear fellow. He did make these claims to unite the people. He did it with the Hellens, but when he went to Asia, he left a lot of Macedonian army in occupied City States to keep control of his conquest.Remember, the Macedonian army was 35,000 with 7,600 Hellens who were willing to serve Alexander.Furtheremore, and there were 50,000 Greeks on the side of Darius fighting the Macedonian army.

    On the question of Misirkov; He lived in Odessa, Ukrain, than he moved to Belaruss and served in government there. Upon his arrival in Bulgaria he said” When I die, I want my bones to be buried in my fatherland Macedonia where the earth is warmer for my bones to rest".

    The history you read is pro-Bulgarian, twisted
  • Herodotus945 posted:

    on 2nd April 2011, 22:12:15 - Reply

    @Peter

    It is an indisputable historical fact that ancient Macedonians SELF-IDENTIFIED as Greeks at the ancient Olympics for centuries. So I find it rather odd those that call former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians in FYROM that now call themselves "Macedonians" (on the alleged basis of self-identification trumps all)... should go to contridict their own rules when it comes to ancient Macedonians.

    "Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. " (Speech of Alexander I of Macedonia upon being admitted to the Olympic games as a self-identifying Greek, Herodotus, " Histories", 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley)

    Furthermore, if nationalist fanatics like you can't tell your own modern Bulgarian history honestly what chance is there you are stating ancient history correctly? All you do is evade clear cut evidence (by your own national heroes and representatives no less) that in the 19th and early 20th century (prior to the communists) you were "Macedonians" only in the regional sense not ethnic. (back them you mostly self-identified as ethnic Bulgarians)

    "The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim.[...] The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians" (Anthropologist Loring Danforth, currently listed on a FYROM website MHRMI as a historical expert, "The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995)








  • Peter posted:

    on 2nd April 2011, 19:59:47 - Reply

    Herodotus,even if Demosthenes and Isocrates showed-up at your door step,you would not know to interpret the real history.Please do your self a favour,stop lying to people who are not familiar with the Balkan history!
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 17:04:16 - Reply

    @Will Smith

    You utterone one straw man after another. Greece doesn't claim FYROM will invade Greece but by legitimizing the name in the future they might make allies to support such a venture. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know they have tried this THREE times in the past

    a. the Balkan wars when IMRO were aligned with Bulgaria...as they used to self-identify as Bulgarians

    b. WW2 when IMRO initially aligned with the axis (because Bulgaria did) and helped in the occupation of Macedonia Greece (which saw may Macedonians Greeks eradicated)

    c. Greek Communist civil war... then Tito claimed "persecution" ... claimed he wasn't interested in "united Macedonia".... and played these exact name games. (and Tito was the one that used state force to completely eradicate the ethnic Bulgarian context to their so-called "Macedonian" identity)

    You claim you are from Great Britain. I really don't know if you are British or just a FYROM nationalist pretending be British (a common practice by FYROM nationalists) What I do know is that both Great Britain and the US at the time FIRMLY supported Greece on this issue (claiming no such thing as an "ethnic Macedonian" existed AND supplying the weapons to
    kill IMRO terrorists).

    e..g.
    This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece." - US State Department 1944.,
    http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

    "It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina.”" - Edward O'Hara House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602

    "And whether Bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.” - Krste Crvenkovski (President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) to Todor Zhivkov (First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria) – May 19, 1967.
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j


    So logically speaking.... if such a thing as ethnic Macedonians existed at the time....both the US and Great Britain were morally complicit in an attempted genocide of "ethnic Macedonians". So dear, are you accusing the UK and the US of being complicit in a genocide attempt of "ethnic Macedonians" then?






  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 16:31:24 - Reply

    @Z

    Nationalist fanatics like you hide the regional context to the name "Macedonia" prior to the communist. A Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Jews, Turks, Albanians.... all lived in the region (which was part of the OTTOMAN empire not some illustration Macedonian state that exists only in your head) Your capital citiy used to be called a Turkish Uskub until you used force against the Turks to take that land.

    We all fought one another land but you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarian got so greedy you ended playing mind games by switching ethnic names. (to the point you even have yourselves confused now). Evern your own former elected Presidents and Prime Ministers have admitted you have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians but fanatics like the current PM of FYROM (and people like yoU) hide the truth from the world to cover up your shame.


    "The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

    Everyone remotely sane knows ancient Macedonians were part of the Hellenistic sphere not Slavs. You remind me very much of IMRO fascists that helped the Axis occupy Greece during WW2 for "united Macedonia". You are making the same mistakes by trying to fabricate history and by trying to erase Greeks (in particular Macedonians) to usurp their identity.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana
    http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fyrom_nazi.jpg

    Lunatic racists like you are an affront to humanity. You think it is a "human right' to steal someone else's identity and use it to threaten their territory. Disgusting Nazi.
  • Z posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 06:16:07 - Reply

    @HerodotusHistories945 ,

    is that the very best you can come up with? Bulgarians, who i have never met, except 1, who i played soccer with years ago... ? they are behind all this, right mate... keep grasping at straws...

    If that was the case, when Macedonia was partitioned into 3 parts, why did Greece allow this to happen? whey did they want ALL of it back ,,.. After all its theirs?

    you know why? Because they were happy to steal a large part of it, and keep the others happy. Serbia and Bulgaria. If it was theirs, then they should have fought to the death to have it back.. no all that happens was 3 theifts split the loot and just because they took possession of it doesn’t make it theirs.....

    i dont blame you for your ignorance , its you who were brought up this way, its you who are projecting, but you cant change history nor the future...

    I remember being asked what I was by a Greek,.. I said Macedonian. He said, greek Macedonian or FYROM. I told him, there is only one Macedonia :-)

    Macedonia didnt start with Tito or anyone else your quoting, i had relatives that used to live in Agena Macedonia, i have first hand acount of facts and know what i am talking about.

    you really should be ashamed of your self, only one turning a blind eye here is you to the genocide and ethnic cleansing committed by the Greeks.

    The words you type are affront to humanity.


  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 05:45:48 - Reply

    @Z

    It is you former ethnic Bulgarians that are doing virtually all the assimilating in the 19th century there was no such thing as an "ethnic Macedonian". You were Bulgarians living in the Ottoman controlled territories that used to be called Macedonia. (much like Greek were)

    You are the one evading blatantly obvious evidence of FYROM's own ethnic Bulgarian past. I don't blame you for the crimes committed on Bulgarians by Tito communist propagandists but Gruevski should be ashamed of himself. He very well knows Slavs have nothing to do with ancient Macedonian.

    "Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. " (Speech of Alexander I of Macedonia upon being admitted to the Olympic games as a self-identifying Greek, Herodotus, " Histories", 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley)

  • Z posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 04:05:32 - Reply

    @Rick,

    i am indoctrinated with nothing but the truth. It was the Greeks that annexed a large part of Macedonia and then tried to assimilate the population. Didn’t work, will never work. Macedonia will be whole again, Greece should worry about its own financial problems and apologies and take responsibility for the genocide it has committed and the human rights it continues to violate.

    Anything else you have to say is just nonsense, and no one really wants to hear it, you can yell and should how you darm well like, won’t change even the faintest thing in the world.

    back to the dark cave where ever you came from......
  • Rick posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 02:50:05 - Reply

    Look at this extreme nationalist like Z from Fyrom. They are totally indoctrinated with propaganda. They want cultural genocide the indigenous Macedonians(Greeks). This is what Greece have to deal with. A country that is totally built on fabricated history. The closest in comparison is Nazi Germany. Every day TV in Fyom is feeding this kind extreme nationalism. These people are with propaganda taught that 33% of Greece is theirs.

    Yet have no one from Fyrom explained why all their historical heors are Bulgarians(falsified and renamed to "ethnik Macedonians" in fyroms history books).


    Samuel of Bulgaria
    Samuel[1] (also Samuil, representing Bulgarian: Самуил, pronounced [samu'il]) was the Emperor (Tsar) of the First Bulgarian Empire from 997 to 6 October 1014. From 980[2] to 997, he was a general under Roman I of Bulgaria.

    Kuber
    Khan Kuber (or Kouver) was a Bulgar leader, probably brother of Khan Asparukh and member of the Dulo clan, who according to the Miracles of St Demetrius, in the 670s was the leader of a mixed Christian population of Bulgars.

    Saint Naum
    Saint Naum of Preslav (Bulgarian: Свети Наум Преславски, IPA: [sve'ti na.'um pre'slavski]) (or also known as Saint Naum of Ohrid) (c. 830 - December 23, 910) was a medieval Bulgarian[1][2] scholar, writer and teacher. Information about his life before his return from Great Moravia to Bulgarian empire is scarce.

    Miladinov Brothers (fathers of Fyroms folklore)
    The Miladinov Brothers (Bulgarian: Братя Миладинови, Bratya Miladinovi, Macedonian: Браќа Миладинови, Brakja Miladinovi), Dimitar Miladinov (1810-1862) and Konstantin Miladinov (1830-1862), were Bulgarian poets and folklorists.

    Saint Clement
    Saint Clement of Ohrid (Bulgarian: Свети Климент Охридски, IPA: [sve'ti 'kliment 'oxridski]) (ca. 840–916), was a medieval Bulgarian[2][3][4][5][6] scholar and writer, the first Bulgarian archbishop[7] and one of the seven Apostles of Bulgaria.[1
  • Z posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 01:29:28 - Reply

    I don’t have time to read through everything and reply to everyone, esp those that are insulting. I have heard it all,.. Alexader the Great was, Bulgarian, no albanian, greek, turkish, everything, except Macedonian, lol... look at the region of Macedonia in Greece and the flag it uses, its a sun star on a BLUE flag,.. MACEDONIA was a gold star on a RED FLAG, it HASNT change for 2000 years! yet greece wona assimilate it, and its looks bad. If that dosnt tell you something, then you have rocks in your brain.

    ill leave you with one thing, the Greeks are prepared to kill for Macedonia, that is obvious, but are they prepared to die for it? not a chance, only a real Macedonian is, i was born a Macedonian, and i will be a Macedonian till they day i die, and i know that it is the same for every single Macedonian,.. Greece wants to steel it, but end of the day a robber/thief will run away and leave his stolen loot if it means that his life is put in jeopardy. That’s the true test, that’s when the truth comes out,... Macedonia will never change, Macedonia will exist for ever......
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 00:45:13 - Reply

    #peter

    Fanatics like you even hdie the fact your own former elected Presidents, Prime ministers, and diplomats only a few years ago used to claim you weren't related to ancient Macedonians (who as everyone knows were actually self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians that spoke a Bulgarian dialect renamed Macedonian by communists)

    'We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.' - FYROM'S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives, Washington DC, January 22 1999

    'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' - FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

    "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" - Kiro Gligorov, FYROM's first President, Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    'The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimize themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece ) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.'
    (FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski - 1991 to 1993)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDLmufGHqQ
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 31st March 2011, 00:41:22 - Reply

    @Peter

    You lie. The very fact former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia like you are trying to build a narrative to antiquity attests to the level of absurdity Greeks have to deal with. (and that narrative is used to insinuate Macedonia Greeece is "occupeid")

    For iinstance, you are subttle manipulating the context of the term "Macedonai". In the 19th century it was a regional term not ethnic. THere is plenty of statistical evidence that contridicts your claims.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data

    FYROM own national heroes attest to their own Bulgarian heritage in their own writings (something nationalist fanatics like you hide and evade) Here are the words of your famous 19th century "Macedonian" founding father Krste Misirkov: (most of which are pulled from his book "On Macedona Matters".
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm

    "We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"

    "Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians"

    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”

    “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”

    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”

    “We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness."

    “But now cries from the Macedonians can be heard: we are Bulgarians, we are more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves. …….. You could be victors over Bulgaria and impose on it all sorts of treaties but this cannot change our conviction, our consciousness that we are not Serbians, that up till now we have called ourselves Bulgarians and this is what we are today and this is what we want to be called in the future.”

    “The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[...] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”

    etc.. .etc..

    Greece may have made a mess of its finances. Thats nothing compared to the mess you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians have made of your identity. You are so thick in your historical propaganda fanatics like you are bizarrely ethnically cleansing your own Bulgarian roots.

    "The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164
  • Peter posted:

    on 30th March 2011, 22:37:08 - Reply

    To Rick;
    Rick, you are misleading Will Smith in your comments. When a person asks a question should be answered historically correct.
    On the issue of elections in Greece; The Ouranio Toxo delivered the pamphlets to the Post Office and paid in full for postal deliveries to the voters. Once the elections were over, the Post Office informed the Ouranio Toxo that, their mail was not delivered, no explanation given.
    Talk about freedom of speech and assembly. Is this what Greece means democracy?
    Post Office has the duty to deliver mail for all citizens. How can people vote not knowing the candidates?

    On the issue of population. Let me put you straight,” Balkan and Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia"
    Nikolaides 1899, Greeks 656,300
    Macedonians 454,000
    Turks 576,600
    Bulgarian-Kenchov 1900, Macedonians 0
    Serbs 400
    Bulgarians 1,037,000
    Greeks 214,000
    Turks 610,365
    Serbian Gopchevich 1886, Macedonians 0
    Serbs 1,540,000
    Greeks201, 000
    Turks 397,020
    Now lets take a look at others finding;
    German Dr.K.Ostreich 1905
    Macedonians 1, 5000,000
    Serbs 0
    Bulgarians 0
    Greeks 200,000
    Turks 550,000
    Austrian K.Gersin 1903
    Macedonians 1,182,036
    Serbs 0
    Bulgarians 0
    Greeks 228,702
    Turks 627,915
    English Andrew Rousos
    Macedonians1, 150,000
    Serbs 0
    Bulgarians 0
    Greeks 300,000
    Turks 400,000
    The term” Macedonian Slavs” is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves” Macedonians Slavs”, but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show. The same "Macedonian Slavs" mistake was again repeated by some western media, as the Albanian terrorists attacked Macedonia in March of 2001, and again it was done deliberately.

    As at the beginning of the 20th century, the Macedonians showed their outrage at the beginning of the 21st century of this racial insult and publicly instead that their nationality be respected. Not only the Macedonians all over the world vigorously accused the western media for racial bias, but also did various western independent and non-governmental organizations. That referring to the Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs” was a mistake was publicly acknowledged by BBC which apologized and withdrew its reporter Paul Wood precisely for his bias reporting, and since continued to rightfully refer to the Macedonians for what they have always been-Macedonians.

    It is easy to manipulate the public by fabricating the truth, and that is what Greece has been doing continuously since their formation as a nation in 1834.Western historians have been writing history of Greece just for their own glorification as professor and founder of the school Ethos in 19th century in England, Dr.Thomas Arnold suggested that "fabricating Greek legends will profoundly improve the English image, even more than the Greek image."
    What makes anyone believe, that Greece does not fabricate history?
    For years Greece lied to financial institutions about their finances, and that’s in the 21st century, how pathetic can one be!
    Every one has a right to his/her opinions, but it should be the truth, not lies.
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 30th March 2011, 06:49:37 - Reply

    @Will Smith

    Incidentally your claim that Greeks only recently became concerned with Macedonia is patently false. (a myth repeated by FYROM nationalists and its apologists ) If anything it is FYROM nationalist that recently "discovered' they are "ethnic macedonians" not "ethnic Bulgarians"

    For instance directly after the Balkan wars (after liberating it from the Ottomans) Greece used to the name Macedonia (while most of the people in what is today FYROM still self-identified as ethnic Bulgarians).

    Furthermore even decades prior to that period (after the Peloponnese was first freed from Ottoman occupation) Greeks considered Macedonia part of our territory.

    e.g.
    DECLARATION OF THE TEMPORARY GOVERNMENT OF "To the Governments of the European powers"
    The long lasting sufferings which the respectable governments have heard about from their representatives, and which by now have reached a state of stressful despair, have obliged the inhabitants of Macedonia to take up arms in order to defend their lives, their honour and property. Calling a meeting today the representatives of the various communities in Macedonia, overthrew the Sultan´s tyrannical authority, declared the union of Macedonia with mother Greece, and chose us in order to form the Temporary Government of the revolution with the obligation to ask from the Christian super powers their mighty protection for the justification of our fight…(Macedonia) is ready to be freed and connected to mother Greece, even if it needs to be delivered to fire and disaster rather than continue living under the tyranny of various Turkish notables. They destroyed and violated the honour and sanctity of family life. All promises and obligations that the Turkish authorities gave to its subjects have proved by now to be nothing more than purposely sly and deceptive. The Turkish government has several times granted rights but tyranny has never been loosened. On the contrary, our misfortunes became endless and horrible because this government has neither power nor authority. Therefore, we were forced to seek our arms so that we may die as men as Greeks if we are not allowed to live like logical and free men."
    Signed] In Litohoro, Mt. Olympus [on] 19th February, 1878 [by the members of]
    The Temporary Government of Macedonia:

    http://historyofmacedonia.wordpress.com/2010/09/04/macedonian-history-fyrom-propaganda-manipulation-sources/

    There was also a middle age Roman/Byzantine Macedonia (located in Thrace). They spoke Greek and considered their roots ancient Greek (not ethnic ethnic Bulgarians that spoke a Bulgarian dialect).

    There is also a reason why all the ancient Macedonian artifacts have Greek letters on them rather than Cyrillic ones no?
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 29th March 2011, 18:44:56 - Reply

    @will smith.

    You spout the exact same Greek-hating vitriol as FYROM nationalists do. (even your comment about "blood" is reflective of how they talk)

    I've caught many FYROM nationalists pretending to be either Greeks or neutral third parties online. In either case, your one-sided reporting clearly marks you as prejudiced against Greek. It is not a "human right" for the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia to usurp the identity of Greeks and use that name manipulation to threaten the territorial integrity of Greece. (much like their prior Nazi and Communists ancestors did)
    @rick

    You're right. The former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia snipping out the context of the term "Macedonian" prior to Tito. (when it was a regional term not ethnic) The vast majority of their ancestors were Macedonians in a Bulgarian ethnic sense prior to Tito. (which their own national heroes attest to but they hide from the world)

    e.g. 19th century "Macedonian" national hero Krste Misirkov (widely considered one of the founding fathers of FYROM)

    “We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian."

    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”


    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”

    "Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians"

    “But now cries from the Macedonians can be heard: we are Bulgarians, we are more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves. …….. You could be victors over Bulgaria and impose on it all sorts of treaties but this cannot change our conviction, our consciousness that we are not Serbians, that up till now we have called ourselves Bulgarians and this is what we are today and this is what we want to be called in the future.”

    "We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"

    etc...

    Let me quote nthropologist Loring Danforth who is a long time supporter of FYROM (that has egg in his of face now that the FYROM government have once again changed their ethnic identity into decedents of "ancient Macedonians"). I use him specifically because he is currently listed on a self-declared FYROM "human rights" organization as an expert (so they can't claim their own declared expert is "greek propagandist")

    "The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. [...]The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians." - Loring Danforth, "The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995
  • Rick posted:

    on 29th March 2011, 16:19:29 - Reply

    @ Will Smith not from Fyrom really? It seems you know all arguments that extreme nationalist uses in their internet sites!

    Of course the slavs in Greeks cant be named as an "Macedonian" minority. The Macedonians in Greece are the people that actually can read the ancient Macedonian inscriptions(versus the former self determined Bulgarians that was renamed to "Macedonians" in communist Yugoslavia).

    There is a slav minority in Greece. Just look it up. No matter what you nationalist tries to portray , remember these slavs where not part of Titos new identity creation. So of course most of them does not identity with the former self determined Bulgarians in Fyrom. The once that does have a party and got about 4000 votes in the last election

    So the question where is the Bulgarian and Greek minority in Fyrom?
    Since the area was mainly Bulgarian lands for 1300 years , would you not think their should be at least a Bulgarian minority? Monastir(named later to Bitola by Bullgarians) had a huge Greek population
    Where did all those Bulgarians and Greeks go?

    So instead of hiding by fancy words like human rights , minority rights ask yourself who are the oppressed once here. Why does not the people in fyrom know about their Bulgarian past? Where are there no historical people in todays Fyrom(Greeks and Bulgarians)?

    Note - "Ethnic Macedonians" have never been seen before Titos communist Yugoslavia in 1944.

    "The 1904 Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha recorded 373,227 Greeks and 204,317 Bulgarians in the vilayet of Selânik (Thessaloniki) alone. According to the same census, Greeks were also dominant in the vilayet of Manastır (Bitola), counting 261,283 Greeks and 178,412 Bulgarians."
  • Rick posted:

    on 29th March 2011, 16:19:04 - Reply

    @ Will Smith not from Fyrom really? It seems you know all arguments that extreme nationalist uses in their internet sites!

    Of course the slavs in Greeks cant be named as an "Macedonian" minority. The Macedonians in Greece are the people that actually can read the ancient Macedonian inscriptions(versus the former self determined Bulgarians that was renamed to "Macedonians" in communist Yugoslavia).

    There is a slav minority in Greece. Just look it up. No matter what you nationalist tries to portray , remember these slavs where not part of Titos new identity creation. So of course most of them does not identity with the former self determined Bulgarians in Fyrom. The once that does have a party and got about 4000 votes in the last election

    So the question where is the Bulgarian and Greek minority in Fyrom?
    Since the area was mainly Bulgarian lands for 1300 years , would you not think their should be at least a Bulgarian minority? Monastir(named later to Bitola by Bullgarians) had a huge Greek population
    Where did all those Bulgarians and Greeks go?

    So instead of hiding by fancy words like human rights , minority rights ask yourself who are the oppressed once here. Why does not the people in fyrom know about their Bulgarian past? Where are there no historical people in todays Fyrom(Greeks and Bulgarians)?

    Note - "Ethnic Macedonians" have never been seen before Titos communist Yugoslavia in 1944.

    "The 1904 Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha recorded 373,227 Greeks and 204,317 Bulgarians in the vilayet of Selânik (Thessaloniki) alone. According to the same census, Greeks were also dominant in the vilayet of Manastır (Bitola), counting 261,283 Greeks and 178,412 Bulgarians."
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 29th March 2011, 07:12:24 - Reply

    @Rick @HerodotusHistories945
    Once again, I will state that I do not have a drop of Balkan blood in my viens - if I did I certainly wouldn't have a problem with saying it. You Greek dudes, once again change the topic - what about the lack of recognition of ethnic minorities in Greece? You cannot honestly believe they don't exist. You guys are like broken records - blah, blah, blah. The only major destabalization in the region in recent memory is Greece's financial crisis.
  • Rick posted:

    on 29th March 2011, 00:40:07 - Reply

    @Will smith Dear Fyrom nationalist you are to funny. Not once have you referenced a sinlge fact. It is not a human right to falsify history like Fyrom has done. Subsituting "Bulgarian" with "Macedonian" in the story still makes your ancestors Bulgarians. That is a fact that will never go a way. Here is a list of the real Macedonian through history.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Macedonians_(Greek)

    Unfortunate for you is that you cant provide with a list of "ethnik Macedonians" since all your ancestors where Bulgarians.

    The indigenouse Macedonians have a human right to keep their identity , culture and history.

    "Macedonia was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The Macedonian language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, almost certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted. Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these “radical Slavic factions” decided to live with their myths and lies for the constant amusement of the rest of the world..."
    T.J. Winnifrith, "Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments", Duckworth,1995.

    "The Macedonian nationalists quite simply stole all of Bulgarian historical argument concerning Macedonia, substituting Macedonian for Bulgarian ethnic tags in the story. Thus Kuber formed a Macedonian tribal alliance in the late seventh century; Kliment and Naum were Macedonians and not Bulgarians; the medieval archbishop-patriarchate of Ohrid, which Kliment led, was a Macedonian, not a Bulgarian independent church, as shown by the persistence of Glagolitic letters in the region in the face of the Cyrillic that were spawned in Bulgaria; and the renowned Samuil led a great Macedonian, rather than a western Bulgarian, state against Byzantium (giving Slav Macedonia its apex in the historical sun). "

    Dennis P. Hupchick, "Conflict and Chaos in Eastern Europe", Palgrave Macmillan, 1995.
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 28th March 2011, 20:32:44 - Reply

    @Will Smith

    You are too funny. FYROM nationalists like you hide your own ethnic Bulgarian heritage from the world...while giving lectures to other nations about "propaganda".

    Every argument you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians make could possibly make about Greeks is 10 fold truer about yourselves. (e.g Gruevski's' 35% unemployment and third world GDP/capita makes Greece, even with all its current problems, look like Germany by comparison)

    If you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians claim to be related to ancient Macedonians now.... why don't you want to speak some dialect of Greek.....like ancient Macedonians did? Why are you so against Hellenism... if ancient Macedonians loved it? And why again don't you self-identify as Greeks.... like ancient Macedonians did?

    The answer is because you very well know you have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia . You apparently are so ashamed of your own ethnic heritage.... much like when IMRO leaderhship aligned with Axis forces during WW2....you are willing to ethnically erase Greeks to cover up your shame.

    Fortunately not everyone in your country is an insane ultra nationalist that's ashamed to admit his own Bulgarian ethnic roots. What remains to be seen is whether the fanatics will continue to destabilize the region with their historical fabrications and hostile rhetoric.... or will they face their ethnic Bulgarian past.

    "The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." - former FYROM foreign minister Denko Maleski
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 28th March 2011, 19:05:04 - Reply

    One thing I find funny from the Greek side is why did it take you so long to find your Macedonian roots? When was the airport in Thessaloniki renamed to the airport of Makedonia? The other thing, is why didn't the Greek Government offer everyone in the present Macedonia South of Prilep Greek Citizenship? The Greek Government did this in Albania? This I know for a fact as I have worked with numerous Albanians from the south of present day Albania who have Greek citizenship - they of course had to deny that they are Albanians because according to Greeks there are no minorities in Greece. Just like in the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding - there are only two types of people in the World - Greeks and those who want to be Greeks. You know, both sides of this issue need to wake up, but the fact that you lied and falsified your financial position to get into the EU really cuts into your credibility on the international stage - at the moment you guys have pissed a lot of people off - if you are happy with that, then do everyone a favour, default, crawl back into your hole and leave the rest of Europe alone. Internationally you have become a joke. If anyone has had too much propaganda thrown at them over the years it's you the modern day Greeks!
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 28th March 2011, 16:40:19 - Reply

    @z

    By the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugolsavia trying to steal the identity of Macedonians you are morally complicit in the attempted cultural genocide of the Greek people.(in particular Macedonians)

    Here are the words of FYROM's own politicians from only a few years ago. Nationalists fanatics like you seem to have forgotten then as Gruevski tries to rebrand ethnic Bulgarians into descendents of ancient Macedonians.

    'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' - FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

    "The whole story about Ancient Macedonia sounds undoubtedly very nice. However, there is a great problem, a huge hole of about 2,000 years during which we have neither oral nor written tradition, nor a single scientific argument.” - former Prime Minister Ljubco Georgievski, FOCUS, 31 March 2008

    "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" - Kiro Gligorov, FYROM's first President, Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    "We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church." - Slobodan Ugrinovski, FYROM politician - "Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia" - A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#p/u/42/YZRCMBzkV88


    "The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." - former FYROM foreign minister Denko Maleski
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

    "To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn't so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[...] "Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[...] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[...]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[...]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[...]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today's Macedonia at all.[...]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today's Greece.[...] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. " - Ljubco Georgievski, former Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009





  • Rick posted:

    on 28th March 2011, 16:35:19 - Reply

    @Z Even the historians in Australia after talking with the former self determined ethnik bulgarians in Australia defines you as

    " indoctrinated with misinformation "

    Here is the story from the Australian historian Professor Melville-Jones
    after meeting people from Fyrom.

    "Then I had another learning experience. In 2000 I was given an old icon painting. It was so good that it was worth restoring. I took it to a restorer, who did a beautiful job (you may see it when the National Gallery of Victoria arranges a display of icons, which they plan to do in late 2012, or earlier if a suitable time slot opens up). When I was talking with the restorer, he said that he was a Macedonian, and in my innocence I asked him ‘Do you mean Yugoslav Macedonia or Greek Macedonia?’ This led him to talk for at least twenty minutes, as he explained to me that the true Macedonians had been there for thousands of years before the Greeks ever came there, and that St Luke (I’m sure that he said St Luke not St Paul) had been there and learned the Macedonian language; and he tried to correct my ignorance by telling me many other things that I have forgotten. I stood there with my jaw dropping, not knowing what to make of this, and went away to find out more about it (being an academic, I wanted to do a little research, because as far as I was concerned ‘Yugoslav Macedonia’, which by that time was an outdated name, was originally Paionia).
    Of course, it did not take me long to realise that what he had said had no foundation in historical truth, but it made me realise, as I have realised on some other occasions since then, that several generations of people in the FYROM have now been indoctrinated with misinformation of this kind, and of course, when indoctrination has been successfully achieved, it is difficult or impossible to change the attitude of mind that it creates."

    I have met a number of people from FYROM in Perth. They are good citizens, working hard to establish themselves, and to look after their families. However, as they were often not well educated, they have generally not been in a position question the distorted view of history that is the basis of their nation, and is without historical basis, which has been thrust upon them. It has been said that the state of FYROM cannot survive without a historical basis for its national identity. But if you are naked, that does not give you the right to steal someone else’s garments – an then échete roúcha, then prépei na klévete ta roúcha twn állwn. We might also remember the fable of Aesop which tells of the jackdaw which preens itself proudly after sticking the feathers dropped by the peacocks into its own plumage: koloiós allotríois pteroís agálletai.”

    Professor Melville-Jones

    Classics
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 28th March 2011, 16:27:03 - Reply

    @z

    "The Macedonian identity and heritage didn’t start with the current set of politicians, nor will it end with them."

    You "Macedonian" identity was ethnic BULGARIAN in the 19th and early 20th century . It was only "Macedonian" in a regional sense (as you live in the region much like Turks, Greeks, Serbs, Albanians. A combination of IMRO propaganda and later Yugoslavian communist erased that identity.

    "rather than taking quotes out of context, or even worse, in your case TOTALLY mis understand them"

    Absolute not. It is you that is clearly trying to manipulate quotes. Your own ELECTED officials used to claim you weren't related to ancient Macedonians. (and if we go back far enough... claim to be ethnic Bulgarians). The very fact you need to hide this attests to how dishonest you are not only to foreigners but even to yourself.

    "We Macedonians are descendants of Macedonians."

    Rubbish. Ancient Macedonians were self-identifying Greeks (which their spread of Koine Greek, centuries of participation at ancient Greek-only Olympics, and Hellenistic age attest to.

    You are no more descended from ancient Macedonians than you are ancient Paeonians or Dardinians or Ottoman Turks. If you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians have a single drop of ancient Macedonia blood in you its because you've occasionally mixed with Greeks (as you have with Turks, Albanians, and Serbs too). All Gruevski is essentially doing is replacing "Bulgarian" with "Macedonian". It is an indisputable fact the majority of people that lived in what is today FYROM self-identified as ethnic Bulgarians and called their language Bulgarian.

    Here are the words of your own national hero Krste Misirkov. (words fanatics like you hide from )

    “We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian"

    "We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."[...]'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?

    “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”

    “We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense”

    “The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness”

    “But now cries from the Macedonians can be heard: we are Bulgarians, we are more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves. …….. You could be victors over Bulgaria and impose on it all sorts of treaties but this cannot change our conviction, our consciousness that we are not Serbians, that up till now we have called ourselves Bulgarians and this is what we are today and this is what we want to be called in the future.”

    “No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”

    “If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”

    etc..

    Let me quote anthropologist Loring Danforth whom I used solely because he is listed as an expert on one of your own self-declared "human rights" organizations (essentially fronts for FYROM ultra nationalists that just add "human rights" to the name of their website)

    "The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim.[...] Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a Macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical development.[...] The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians. (Loring Danforth, "The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995)

    "Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity [...] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one." - Macedonian historian Eugene N. Borza, "Macedonia Redux", in "The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity"

    "On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great." (370 accredited classicists from around the world and counting)
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html








  • z posted:

    on 28th March 2011, 02:14:00 - Reply

    @ HerodotusHistories945

    i’m sorry the “irony” is indeed lost on me, mostly because there is none to be seen here.

    The Macedonian identity and heritage didn’t start with the current set of politicians, nor will it end with them.

    One of the most amusing things I found in your post was this:

    We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.' - FYROM'S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives, Washington DC, January 22 1999

    I don’t ever remember saying or anyone saying that Macedonians were descendants of Alexander the Great. This is farcical to even address. As I recall, he didn’t have any children/heirs, so how could anyone ever claim to be descendants of him? Its really baffles the mind, and i am really shocked, and saddened that you would even someone how use a ridicules assumption to strengthen your case. Anyone with even the slightest mental capacity can actually see what it is for. Your counter arguments fall apart like so much cupboard boxes in rain, once you start to poke at it. If you actually take things on their merits, rather than taking quotes out of context, or even worse, in your case TOTALLY mis understand them, then i have to question all your other “facts” and “evidence” you have used to frame your opinion on this matter. I must say that its pretty poor effort in your part this time, and i dare say most people are not as dim witted and have the basic reading and compression skills.

    no, what i think has happened here is that you have been confused with so much dis information floating around it is easy to get things wrong. So i dono if you did this deliberately, i hope not, because it would for one be a childish attempt to do so, and i would like to think that you were deceived by some propaganda, and had a moment of poor judgment rather then the opposite.

    Just for your record, Alexander the Great was Macedonian. Alexander the great was a descendant of Macedonian’s, we Macedonian’s are not descendants of Alexander the Great, and We Macedonians are descendants of Macedonians.

    Have a good day.
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 26th March 2011, 18:58:24 - Reply

    @z

    The irony of people like you is that you think you are helping "Macedonians" but in practice you are helping Gruevski use state force and state propaganda to oppress FYROM's own ethnic Bulgarian heritage (must like Tito era Yugoslava communists did). At the same time you brush over the identity rights of Macedonians (i.e. the Greeks that live in the region that was ancient Macedonia and can still read many of the Greek words found on Macedonia artifacts).

    You do realize of course the ancient and modern regions of Macedonia are not the same right? That FYROM is primarily situated in what was once ancient Paeonia in antiquity (thus implicitely trying to create an identity out of territory based in Greece)

    I can accept neutrality on the issue but anyone that ouright supports FYROM I see as morally complicit in a subtle attempt at cultural genocide of Greeks. Thus I wholely support Greeks undermine the interests of any person(s) that aids FYROM in that regard. (since they've effectively declared war against the Greek people-in particular Macedonians)

    In my opinion, even your attempt to frame facts as "propaganda" attests to your prejudices against Greeks "z". For instance, these are direct quotes by FYROM's own former government officials. I never ceased to be amazed how FYROM appologists like you consistently "forget" to report them as Gruevski once again tries to reframe their identity (now apparently related to ancient Macedonians)

    'We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.' - FYROM'S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives, Washington DC, January 22 1999

    'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' - FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

    "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" - Kiro Gligorov, FYROM's first President, Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4


    "We are not stating by accident that Josip Broz Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia, a father and a mother for Macedonia. Because we have, in that time, after NOB, for the first time created a Macedonian alphabet, a Macedonian television, a Macedonian state, a language, a passport, an identity card, a university for the first time, a Macedonian academy for the first time. We, communists, have created the Macedonian Orthodox church."
    (Slobodan Ugrinovski, FYROM politician - "Tito is Jesus Christ for Macedonia" - A1 TV, FYROM May 04 2009)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#p/u/42/YZRCMBzkV88

    "The whole story about Ancient Macedonia sounds undoubtedly very nice. However, there is a great problem, a huge hole of about 2,000 years during which we have neither oral nor written tradition, nor a single scientific argument!” = former Prime Minister Ljubco Georgievski, FOCUS, 31 March 2008

    "And whether Bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.” - Krste Crvenkovski (President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) to Todor Zhivkov (First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria) – May 19, 1967
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    "The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." -former FYROM foreign minister Denko Maleski
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

    etc..
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 26th March 2011, 18:35:49 - Reply

    @z

    Your arguments amount to evasion of the facts and substituting your person pet theories based on your biases.

    If you actually had a remote clue about what you were talking about you would know Yugoslav communists used these exact persecution games prior to the Greek civil war (also claiming at the time their interest wasn't a united Macedonia... until a few years later when they did the exact opposite) A the time the US stated would unambiguously (presumably not complicit in an attempted genocide)...

    "This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece." - U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26 Dec. 1944 http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

    What is "preposterous" are apologists for the blatantly obvious hostility and threat FYROM presents to Greece. Three wars have been fought over this issue. In past FYROM nationalists (aka primarily ethnic Bulgarians that hide their own ethnic roots)... eventually gained allies much bigger than Greece (including the Soviet Union and Nazi German which IMRO initially aligned with). Many Greeks have died at IMRO hands (whose entire mission was a United Macedonia") Pardon when you I don't accept your empty assurances when FYROM's current ruling party is named VMRO in honour of IMRO.

    Regardless what the FYROM government claims officially (what do you expect them to say) in practice they encourage their citizens to see Greece as occupied territory. Even a token Internet search today of "united Macedonia" would uncover rampant irredentist claims by countless FYROM nationalists (that frame Greece as "occupied")

    You claim you "don't hate Greeks" yet only someone blind, ignorant of the facts, or just racist against Greeks could miss the blatently obvios attempts to usurp Greek history and irredentists claims. Since when did it become a human right for a 19 year old nation to attempt to usurp the identity and territory of people in a neighbouring state?
  • z posted:

    on 26th March 2011, 10:02:25 - Reply

    @Rcik, the problem is that Greece is a much larger country then Macedonia and is entrenched in many organisations and able to influence and I dare say manipulate much more governments as well as public opinion. Macedonia is not as large nor has the resources, the amount of propaganda coming from Greeks does in fact exceed that from the Macedonia side. So while I agree that 400 people have one view, it doesn't really make much difference. Some people will side with one side the other with the other. The thing about it, is that their "opinions" motivated by questionable motives isn't relative to anyone really.

    As for geeks objections,.. its preposterous to claim that Macedonia is any sort of threat to their territory. I mean come on seriously, this is a joke, and is a fabricated problem that they are using as a reason to deny the name and entry into organizations. Personally, i couldn't give a rats ass about the EU, i really hope that Macedonia NEVER joins them. Why? it will only lead them create more problems. Its like i asked my dad, why its good, hes like "Because everyone's pay will be raised higher" well, money doesn't grow on trees, but it is printer on paper unfortunately. There will be consequences, inflation, and in the end i think they will be in a much worse position then they are now. If prices are higher, then there will be less investment, why would companies pay people tippler, they will take business to other countries. Didn't work for other countries, and with the problems, with Greece, Ireland, and others, it seems that the economic system in Europe is pretty much screwed and still imperialistic, see how many people we can economically enslave. In the past major powers did this through force, now they do it through economic warfare.

    @Will, On a side, not i don't hate Greeks, i hate what some greeks do, there is a difference. I judge people on their actions, not their nationality. Like i said i have Greek friends, and my cousin married a Greek man - he couldn't give a rats ass about the name dispute or Alexander the great. I like him more then half my family infact. I also have another cousin who married a Greek girl. No one shows any animosity toward her, and i didn't even know she wasntgreek. My brother had to tell me that the reason she didnt understand what we were talking about was because she didnt speak Macedonia, and i was like , what is she,. he replied "greek" didnt bother me at all, why would it to anyone. Why would someone hate someone based on where they were born or more importantly where their parents were? These sort of insults are childish and immature and dont promote anything useful, id rather live with all my neighbours in happiness. Same goes for friends i have that are Croat and Serb, im fiends with both, but they arnt because of what happened in the wars. Pretty stupid. And it wasn't my parents that forced anything onto me to "think" this way i can tell when someone is bullshiting.

    oh and btw, Macedonia has been around for alot longer then the UN and other organisations, i see no reason why we should change to accommodate them, its those organisations that should accommodate us. What if Macedonia had joined first, and was vetoing Greece's entry for whatever reason..... wouldn't be fair either, but if the shoes ont he other foot it seems ok, its hypocritical, and Greece is doing alot of damage to its already tattered reputation in the international community.

    As for the people posting links and quotes, please stop this, really, id like to your your theories and thoughts, rather than actual repeated rhotic that your trying to propagate, its pretty much useless spam.

    Only thing i regret is actually trying to have a normal conversation with people that dont want to hear it and wasting my time posting here.

    good day.



  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 21:22:14 - Reply

    If the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia want a "united macedonia".... they are welcome to give their country to Greeks and go back to being ethnic Bulgarians. Otherwise please leave us alone with your ridiculous historical fabrications and persecution games.

    Everyone even remotely knowledgeable with ancient Greek history knows ancient Macedonians had absolutely nothing to do with Slavic peoples. FYROM nationalist are no more "ethnic Macedonians" then you are "ethnic Turks" or "ethnic Paeonias" or "ethnic Serbians" or "ethnic Albanians" or "ethnic Jews" or "ethnic Greeks" or "ethnic .,

    If you cherish your ethnic Bulgarian heritage (rather than oppressing it) not only would it dramatically improve relations with all your neighbours but you would feel better about yourselves. The facts about your Bulgarian heritage will never disappear.

    "But who are the Macedonians? You will find Bulgarians and Turks who call themselves Macedonians, you find Greek Macedonians, there are Servian Macedonians, and it is possible to find Roumanian Macedonians. You will not, however, find a single Christian Macedonian who is not a Servian, a Bulgarian, a Greek, or a Roumanian. They all curse the Turk, and they love Macedonia. But it is Greek Macedonia, or Bulgarian Macedonia, and their eyes flame with passion, whilst their fingers seek the triggers of their guns “ - Pictures From The Balkans” " Pg.5
    by John Foster Fraser 1906



  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 19:45:14 - Reply

    Still waiting for those that claim to be objective reporting about name dispute to report facts like this.

    "To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn't so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[...] "Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[...] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[...]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[...]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[...]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today's Macedonia at all.[...]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today's Greece.[...] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. " - Ljubco Georgievski, former Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 19:43:47 - Reply

    One of the posters writes

    "So you are saying if Greece is found in violation of Internatonal law then it doesn't need to abide by it. That;s kind of a fascist approach don't you think?"

    If Greece loses... in the fact of overwhelming evidence that FYROM has violated the terms of argreement (by trying to usurp our identity, irredentists claims, and hostitle propaganda)... then ICJ is a joke. I can only hope the ICJ remembers what the FYROM government used to claim about their identity before Gruevski.

    "The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM)
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

    The "fascism" is to be found in the racists that are now pretending they don't notice FYROM's sudden change in ethnic narrative into "ancient Macedonians" and how they use that to report rampant irredentism. Greeks have every right to protect their own heritage and national borders. Anyone that attempts to claim otherwise harbours serious prejudices towards Greeks.




  • Will Smith posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 17:51:28 - Reply

    @Rick - I will repeat I have no Balkan blood in my viiens, so this isn't about me - other than being an outside witness to this mess.

    The Historians aren't actively protesting - they all just signed a document stuck under their noses - that's the sort of thing they do.

    Were you there when this part of the World was linking itself to the Naziis. etc. or was it something you were taught and read in the history books? How about we move to the here and now and not what might be, because it happened way back when - the World has changed a wee bit in the past 60 years or so. If you notice a lot of former enemies are now working together and in some cases formed partnerships - some of these former enemies are actually in the EU. Like, the former Nazi led country - Germany - the most successful economy in Europe, not bad for a bunch of former Nazis?. But I know, you guys don't like them either since they did some nasty things way back when - actually didn't you have a King at one point who was German?

    Have you actually seen any of the Macedonian propaganda first hand, or just heard about it in other propaganda? Have you ever visited Skopje or any other place in FYROM? Except for one advertisement about the country last year that had about 2 seconds of some guy standing in antigue armour I haven't seen anything on TV here in Skopje. So I don't quite know where you are getting that info from .

    So you are saying if Greece is found in violation of Internatonal law then it doesn't need to abide by it. That;s kind of a fascist approach don't you think? Nice to live in a country that's above the law. Let me introduce to a nice guy from Libya!

    Anyway, this has been fun, but must go enjoy an evening in downtown Skopje, looking at statues, and flag poles and see how the humongous pedestal for Alexander the Great's statue is coming along. I think it would make a nice gift to Greece once all this silliness ends and everyone decides to grow up and get along. Caio.
  • Rcik posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 17:31:06 - Reply

    @Will Smith - the above is answer to your last comment
  • Rick posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 17:25:41 - Reply

    what is your opinion if Greece loses in the International Court over Greece uses it's veto. Is it reasonable that Macedonia should be allowed to enter if International law says Greece viiolated the terms of the agreement?

    No the first violations was done when fyrom applied to Nato as "Republic of Macedonia". Just for that reason Greece had the right to Veto according to the agreement. Also fyrom had agreed to not use Greek symbols. So when their a antique program started they obviously broke the agreement long time ago.

    Greece did not Veto(officially). It was officially a mutual taken decision within the private club Nato. So I dont see how Fyrom could win. Nato is still open for Fyrom when the name is settled. This is just a way for the Gruevski regime to win some time
  • Rick posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 17:14:53 - Reply

    @Will Smith wrote "Here's some news for you - except for a very small minority of nationalistic fools"

    There are real reasons the crop of the historians in the world are protesting against Fyroms propaganda. Dont you think?

    Here is the news for you, Those nationalist are ruling Fyrom. Oppressing Fyroms real ethnic Bulgarian roots. Creating fabricated history on TV in the universities in the schools etc etc. This is fascist state propaganda similar to what we have seen in nazi Germany.

    "It's a country of 2 million people, 90% of which can't agree amongst themselves who should pay for a burned out lightbulb in an apartment block hallway."
    It did not prevent them to create allies with great powers like Nazi Germany and Soviet, Bulgarian and yugoslav communist. Today they are an ally of Turkey(why?)

    Instead of blaming Greeks for your/their identity crises that was not created by the Greeks but by them self .Focus on how Fyrom as a state needs to fix its internal identity problems. Fabrication of history to support an artificial created identity is not the way to go(All of Fyroms heros where ethnik Bulgarians , Tsar Samuil , Kuber , Saint Naum , Milidanov brothers etc etc.)
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 16:57:52 - Reply

    @Rick - I agree that the silliness about the Rosetta Stone, etc. is a bit much, but on the other side of the coin, I think it reasonable that the Greeks accept that there is a large Slavic population in Northern Greece that were forced to change their names, stop using their language, etc. fair is fair after all. How this came about really doesn't matter at this point - the issue is how to fix it. So, at the end of the day, despite all the rhetoric from both sides, there is room to compromise. Personally, I still think there is far too much energy being wasted on both sides in dealing with this issue. Continuing to block EU and NATO entry will have far more serious consequences for the region than the name dispute and I think Greece as a member of both of these organizations has a much bigger responsibility to ensure stability than it does over this national issue. I would be interested to know, what is your opinion if Greece loses in the International Court over Greece uses it's veto. Is it reasonable that Macedonia should be allowed to enter if International law says Greece viiolated the terms of the agreement? I appreciate that the immediate response would be but what if Macedonia loses. Of course I would expect that if they lose then they need to make some changes.
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 16:15:42 - Reply

    @Rick - I will give everyone from this part of the World Accolades for always having every bit of information they can find to back up their argument. I wasn't around for the WWII Nazi festivities, just like I missed out on the 1913 Bucharest Treaty. I am glad some other folks looked after the short guy with a moustache, but you know, me agonizing about this or that conspiracy theory of what might happen, if, when, etc. is a bit of a waste of time. If something should come along, I am sure everyone will band together and come up with a solution, just like has been done for thousands of years, but until then, live and let live and let's all get on with life. It's this sort of paranoia that has helped to ensure that Greece has one of the largest defence budgets per capita in Europe - and now you are paying the price for it. Do you actually believe that the average Macedonian gives a shit about the territory of present day Greece? Here's some news for you - except for a very small minority of nationalistic fools, the majority of people would just like to get on living their lives - have a job, raise a family.... Who cares what they call themselves. The reality is that even with a Geographic qualifier added to the name, everyone except the Greeks will call it Macedonia - just because it's, well, easier to say. Do you think for one second that the Macedonian's have the military capacity or will have in your Great Grandchildren's lifetime to come stomping across your border? It's a country of 2 million people, 90% of which can't agree amongst themselves who should pay for a burned out lightbulb in an apartment block hallway. If you think this is a remote possibility, please share some of what you are smoking! At the end of the day, this entire issue should be considered an embarrassment for both sides!
  • Rick posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 16:14:01 - Reply

    @Will Smith In simple words - we want a neighbor that teaches their children real history that you can find in Oxford and Stanford. So we get a FUTURE based on historical truth and not propaganda.

    We dont want a neighbor that teaches their children that 33% of Greece is theirs and Solun(Thessaloníki) is the capital of a "united Macedonia". That will create problems in the FUTURE.

    We dont Fyrom to produce historical propaganda from their universities, such as "Macedonian" is written on the Egyptian Rosetta stone. Fake DNA reports that Greeks are from Ethiopia etc. Fake TV programs on Fyrom national TV that teaches its people they are direct descents of the ancient Greek Macedonians. That will create problems in the FUTURE.





  • Rick posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 15:31:37 - Reply

    @Will Smith - Some people did not worry when Nazi Germany implemented a fabricated history similar what is done in todays Fyrom. We know what horrible crimes can be done when people are manipulated.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

    This is not about the past but what will happen in the future. During the last 100 years the Slavs/Bulgarians have tried to take the Greek land of Macedonia. First when they allied with Nazis and later on with communist. Today they are building allies with Turkey.

    Lets get the facts straight. Fyrom was never Macedonia. Before 1944 it was called Vardarska. In ancient times it was called Paeonian.

    Yes we are worried of the future in the same way the western world was.

    "For Macedonia to be recognized as an independent state, it would be necessary to change its name [...] It is historically proven that the Yugoslavian Democracy of Macedonia was created by Stalin, Tito and Dimitrov, aiming at the stealthy removal of a large part of Northern Greece. This Democracy was used during the period 1944-1949 in order to destabilise Greece."
    Thomas Niles, US Ambassador, statement on the 23rd June 1992 to the SubCommittee of US Congress, Eleutherotypia newspaper, June 24, 1992


    "his Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."

    U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/26 Dec. 1944)


  • Will Smith posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 15:10:45 - Reply

    @Rick - if you Greeks spent as much time worrying about the future as you do the past, you truly would have a great nation! Who cares where Alexander the Great came from and when - he's dead! He certainly isn't going to change the future. Your first part of your ending will definately be one for your children and grandchildren to look back on as they are paying off YOUR debt!
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 15:05:16 - Reply

    @Z - You seem like a nice guy, but you sort of highlight the entire problem in the Balkans - you have no reason, other than what you have learned from your family, to hate Greeks. This is exactly the problem in this part of the World - everyone has some "learned" reason for having a problem. Rather silly. Personally II don't give a damn what was done to my Grandparents or by whom during their lives - while I may feel sorry for them it's not a reason to judge someone without ever meeting with them. My comments about the Greeks in an earlier post come from my direct experience - it is certainly not something I am going to infect my kids with - it's my issue. Since I am going to spend the rest of my life in the future, I think that is going to be where I will focus my attention. I hope you get your eyes opened when you get a chance to live in this part of the World - keep an open mind, and don't live your parents problems! It's their issue not yours.
  • Rick posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 14:37:52 - Reply

    @Will Smith sorry it was meant for Z
  • Rick posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 14:25:21 - Reply

    @Will Smith Lett 400 accredited historians from world class universiteis reply to your fact less comment:

    "On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia”. This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great [...] We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia (FYROM), who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks [...] We call upon you, Mr. President, to help - in whatever ways you deem appropriate - the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated."

    www.macedonia-evidence.org

    "Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated."
  • Rick posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 14:19:37 - Reply

    So the question why is no one from Fyrom replying on the comments of their Bulgarian roots. Every part of Fyroms so called history has been fabricated by the communist and by the Gruevski government. All historical figures such as Bulgarians like Sain Naum , Tsar Samuil , Kuber and Greeks ones like Alexander Cyril have been falsified and renamed with an artificial "ethnik Macedonian" tag".

    It seems the people of fyrom are oppressed by their own government that hides their true Slavic/Bulgarian past. All people in the world have the right to their past.

    Who is looking after the original Macedonians that actually lives on the land and speaks the language(Greek) of the ancient Macedonians( vs the people in fyrom that are ancestors of Bulgarians and speak a Bulgarian dialect that was renamed 1944, and does not live on historical Macedonian land). They have no human rights?

    Is it a right to try to usurp other countries identity. Is it a human right to fabricate history and oppress its own people like the government of Fyrom does

    I have a crazy idea but why dont fyrom just stick with their real Slavic/Bulgarian history. That would solve many problems.


    "The obviously plagiarized historical argument of the Macedonian nationalists for a separate Macedonian ethnicity could be supported only by linguistic reality, and that worked against them until the 1940s. Until a modern Macedonian literary language was mandated by the socialist-led partisan movement from Macedonia in 1944, most outside observers and linguists agreed with the Bulgarians in considering the vernacular spoken by the Macedonian Slavs as a western dialect of Bulgarian."
    Dennis P. Hupchick, "Conflict and Chaos in Eastern Europe", Palgrave Macmillan, 1995.
  • Z posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 09:11:52 - Reply

    Will your right. They do need leaders, leader(s) that can unite and put the people and country. It starts with forgetting old school nationalism and adopting a fairer approach. My family left 25 years ago when I was a child 4. Up until now I had no opportunity to go back financially. My dream is to help my country fulfill it's full potential , destiny if you will. But I can best serve them from here. I will head back in a few months to see how best. My brothers been and has invested through family farming equipment. This is more important to me then the stalemate name dispute. I plan to live 6mobths in each country. It's only through education that reforms will change the long instilled ways. But we have only had independence for a few decades give it time. I can write more but I'm headed home from work ATM on the bus and it's a pain to type.

    Bigger problems to worry about the a bunch of upset Greeks.

    Cheers
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 08:05:32 - Reply

    Sorry, last post was meant for Z, not G.
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 08:04:06 - Reply

    @G - Leading nations need Leaders - something sorely lacking in Macedonia. If you dream of Macedonia once again being a strong nation, you may want to consider moving there to bring a "Western" approach to doing things. At the moment the Government cannot deal with the 25,713 sqkm of dirt it now has, let alone imagining the country getting bigger. I get a laugh out of all the Macedonians living abroad - if you want Macedonia to survive and grow you should seriously consider moving here or investing here. It is a joke to me that the Greeks are the biggest investors in the country! Where is the proud Diaspora putting their money where their mouths are. Just another paradox of the Macedonians.
  • z posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 06:49:41 - Reply

    George, good points but your conclusion was completely wrong.

    i am Macedonian and live in Australia. All we want is to be allowed to be called Macedonian's, which we do anyways and are recognised by many countries. I have no issue with Greeks wanting to call them self that too. And its not these Macedonians that are confused but those in Aegean Macedonia that have been assimilated.

    Greece didn’t exists up until recently, PERIOD, so it cant fabricate and retrospectively claim artificial heritage. Macedonia did exist, check you bible there are many references in it. Greece got a large chunk of Macedonia in the treaty of verselise. Its pretty clear cut, Macedonia was partitioned by serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria. If i was a Greek i would be shocked at the atrocities committed in my name, same as i would be if any innocent Greek or person of any nationality was oppressed. I am a human first and for most and my home is Earth, but some people seem to think its ok to do bad things to others if they are the “enemy” or were born on the wrong side of some nonexistent line on a map somewhere.

    To claim people are fighting to steel something is ridicules. All this wont change anything, there is no pot of gold at the end of it for us. I have greeks friends, and most greeks know the score. I cant see why this old world school of thought is continues, it will lead to nothing more then a pyrrhic victory. I couldn’t care less if both sides erected thousands of statues to alexander the great, nor object if any other country did the same... i would rather have the money spent of better things to be honest, for BOTH countries. If someone wanted to take my name , i would be truly honoured.

    Macedonia has been though alot in 2000 years, there will be 2000 more and they will be even better then the last.

    THE TRUTH ALWAYS COMES OUT IN THE END!
    I cant really see Greece hanging around for many more years before it disintegrates like Yugoslavia did, and the agena part declaring independence, and in the end re unifying with the rest of Macedonia. If you want to know the truth, this is the only want that there will ever be true peace in the Balkans. When Macedonia is strong and a leader again, we are still a fledgling nation and be sure that there will be good things to come.

    As for this court case, or what a greek thinks of me or what they want to call me, it really dosnt matter to me, only thing that matters is what I call my self.

    cheers
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 06:30:48 - Reply

    @John - I am not a Macedonian - I am actually from the UK and no Balkan blood flows through my viens - I have lived and worked in the region since 1992, so nice try - my opinion is from my first hand experience without any pre-concieved prejudices - so take it as you like it - Greeks have some huge issues to overcome prior to trying rattle on about the Macedonian name - it has been a great diversion for your government and nation - while everyone has been stealing the future within.

    @Kouz - sorry, but having lived in Macedonia for 11,years Macedonia is far from advancing quickly - little has changed in the way things works since when I first arrived in 1994. Your Government continues to blow hot air and instead of focusing on real reforms - like the Government administration - it is obsessed with nationalistic rhetoric and wasting money on statues, and construction projects. (why construction projects? Well construction is the easiest way to get kickbacks as there is always a lot of room for additional works) All of this and the citizens sit and do nothing while you continually get screwed! The infrastructure of the country is falling apart - drive between Straza and Kicevo - the road is unacceptable for a nation wishing for tourists to go to Ohrid. I like the country, but unfortunately, instead of focusing on what it should be everyone is clearly focused on the past. Here's some news Alexander the Great is dead - he will not be back to improve the economy and provide jobs. Tito will not be returning either, so tell your parents that just getting a university degree is not the key to immediately getting a job in the Government!

    Just another example of the Government's stupidity - why are all the trees in the city centre being cut down? Because of the wonderful 1932 style double decker busses! They are too tall so down go the trees. Everyone else in the world is trying to grow trees in their cities, but not Skopje! Again, let's bring back the past - why the goofy busses? Do you think people are going to visit Macedonia to ride a double decker bus?

    I look at Macedonia as what it could be - and Kouz you appear to be a classic Macedonian - immediately get defensive - wake up, if you want to see a Balkan nation going forward I suggest you visit Tirana - still many problems, but attracting foriegn investors, and moving rapidly forward. At least the Albanians have the balls to stand up to their Government - I think the last major protest in Macedonia was over the anti-smoking law!

    Wake up you are going backwards!!!! Get out of your country and see what is happening in the rest of the World!
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 06:05:54 - Reply

    @Johnny D. (aka the ethnic Bulgarian who calls himself "ethnic macedonian"

    You assortment of accusations against Greeks are blood libel in an attempt to excuse your hateful behavior towards Greeks. You are making the exact same mistakes your thug communist grandfathers make. We will not go quietly into the night so Gruevski can hide his dirty little secret that all his government is essentially doing is replacing the words "ethnic Bulgarians" with "ethnic Macedonians".

    "You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness has not yet developed amoung the population is of no account. No such consciousness existed in Byelorussia either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that a Byelorussian people did in fact exist." - communist dictator Joseph Stalin to Bulgarian Delegation on 7 June 1946 (G. Dimitrov, V. Korarov, T. Kostov)




  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 05:54:51 - Reply

    @Johnny D

    FYROM nationalist government officials (aka former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians) in their own words Try and remember these words next time "ethnic Macedonians" try to pawn themselves off as related to ancient Macedonians.

    We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.' - FYROM'S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

    'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' - FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999

    "We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" - Kiro Gligorov, FYROM's first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

    "The whole story about Ancient Macedonia sounds undoubtedly very nice. However, there is a great problem, a huge hole of about 2,000 years during which we have neither oral nor written tradition, nor a single scientific argument.” - Ljubco Georgievski, Former Prime Minister of FYROM, FOCUS, 31 March 2008 ).

    'The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimize themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece ) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.' - FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDLmufGHqQ
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 05:42:37 - Reply

    @Johnny D (i.e. a FYROM nationalist in denial of his own ethnic Bulgarian past)

    You write "According to former US Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger..."

    A. Mr. Eagleburger was the secretary of state under that rocket scientist George Bush that recognized FYROM as Macedonia "coincidentally" after they sent troops to kill Iraqis for his war for WMDS. (How is the search coming along btw? Find them yet? I'm sure FYROM government has also investigated if they were involved in torture with Mr. Bush cronies right?)

    B. Mr. Eagleburger should have been protecting NATO allies not helping a 19 year country trying to ethnically erase them (much like the communist tyrants tried during the cold war... when America used to help Greece against the ethnic Bulgarians who now call themselves "ethnic Macedonians")

    C. Mr. Eagleburger isn't a historian to give his "professional" opinion on history. When 80 year old "modern" American Mr. Eagleburger can report American history properly first, maybe someone can take his laymans views on ancient history remotely seriously.

    "This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece." - U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26 Dec. 1944 http://tinyurl.com/nel46d



  • George posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 04:38:07 - Reply

    Let me start with the obvious racist and hateful statements about the economic problems of Greece. Obviously there is no relationship between Slavic-Macedonian claims and the finances of Greece. If I have troubles with my mortgage that doesn’t give rights to my next door neighbor to try and take part of my back yard.
    Unfortunately there is a deep antipathy from Western Europeans towards all the peoples of the Balkans. For them the Balkans are the backwaters of Europe, the outhouse if you wish. Hence, any stirring, any conflict there is respondent to with the same distaste as any home owner would have felt when they have to deal with cleaning their sewer.
    I find the attitude of the majority of Balkan Slavs very peculiar. Historically they have found themselves under oppressive regimes and controlled either by Turks, Germans or Russians. Their relationship with Greece and Greeks has been based on an osmosis and permeation facilitated by the Orthodox Church. Indeed their whole presence as a category of nations could not be imagined outside the decision of Greek Orthodoxy to bless them with a written language and all the other accouterments of civilization.
    Moreover, while Russians call them their little brothers (but they really mean their little stupid brothers), the Germans call them just stupid slaves good for working in factories. Even the Italians and Albanians think of them as racially inferior. On the other hand Greeks seem to have the most accepting view and behavior towards all of their Slavic neighbors.
    One can simply examine intermarriages, immigration to Greece rates, investment rates, popular media etc. to see a benign if not beneficial role of Greece in regards to their Slavic neighbors.
    Yet, in general there have been ideologies that have risen within the Balkan Slavs that have placed them in direct confrontation with the existence of the Greek Nation and people.
    The case of - is the latest occurrence.
    What surprises the casual observer is that it seems improbable that an ideology based on stealing another ethnic group's identity could be rationally constructed and pursued by a large group of people.
    Yet, we all are aware of identity theft and the pains, expense and effort we have to invest in protecting ourselves. We are also aware that the thief's ultimate goal is to enrich himself at the expense of the person whose identity he has stolen. So, when you add the thieves to the schizophrenics and then the opportunists to the confused and lost, you can create quite a mass of individuals dedicated to pursuing obviously irrational and criminal yet rationalized goals.
    Greeks are not the only ones who had to deal with this kind of problem, Israelis for example had to deal with the Black Hebrew Movement which for decades now has been harassing the various Israeli governments. Few thousands of African-Americans under a messianic type of leadership have tried to relocate masses of African-Americans to Israel and claim the whole Palestine as their own. Their arguments are very similar to the ones advanced by the current FYROM government when it comes to claiming Israel as their own.
    In addition, in the USA ,a number of groups whether of African or European descent have made claims on lands, special status, and even recognition as native interdependent nations based on supposed native(American-Indian) origins. Some of these cases have taken years to resolve and at times have involved land sizes and wealth as big as FYROM.
    Ultimately what is revealed is a well orchestrated plot of few opportunists who were able to entrap many lost, confused and previously victimized and viciously exploited individuals and families. Focused on their own pain, destroyed dreams and uncertain future they became willing attackers on the dignity, history and well being of the native peoples who could have been, should have been their allies and friends.
    I believe one day the current events in the Balkans and the organized hysteria in FYROM would come to be perceived the same way.
  • John posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 04:07:48 - Reply

    The people of Fyrom where still self determined Bulgarians

    Krste Crvenkovski, President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, to Todor Zhivkov, First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria (May 19, 1967)
    “And whether bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.”
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    Statutes of BMARC co-authored by Gotse Delchev and other future IMRO members)
    Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
    Chapter II.– Structure and Organization
    Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN , independent of gender

    (Ivan Hadzhinikolov in his memoirs states one of the principles of the IMRO’s foundation)
    “The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn’t label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.”

    (Hristo Tatarchev – founding member BMARC/IMRO)
    “We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria…”

    (Krste Misirkov)“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[...]‘And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?
    http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm
  • John posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 04:00:43 - Reply

    Back in 1913 the people of Fyrom where still self determined Bulgarians

    "We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves."
    Krste Misirkov, "On Macedonian Matters", Macedonian Review Editions 1974, (Sofia 1903)

    "And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"
    Krste Misirkov, "On Macedonian Matters", Macedonian Review Editions 1974, (Sofia 1903)

    "The Macedonian nationalists quite simply stole all of Bulgarian historical argument concerning Macedonia, substituting Macedonian for Bulgarian ethnic tags in the story. Thus Kuber formed a Macedonian tribal alliance in the late seventh century; Kliment and Naum were Macedonians and not Bulgarians; the medieval archbishop-patriarchate of Ohrid, which Kliment led, was a Macedonian, not a Bulgarian independent church, as shown by the persistence of Glagolitic letters in the region in the face of the Cyrillic that were spawned in Bulgaria; and the renowned Samuil led a great Macedonian, rather than a western Bulgarian, state against Byzantium (giving Slav Macedonia its apex in the historical sun)."

    Dennis P. Hupchick, "Conflict and Chaos in Eastern Europe", Palgrave Macmillan, 1995.

    "Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev - must I list and count all of them - were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate.
    former Prime Minister and Vice President of FYROM, Ljubčo Georgievski, 2007, in his book "С лице към истината" ("Facing the truth").
  • John posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 03:55:48 - Reply

    Will Smith, Barry Drew,

    For English sounding names, you have very strong anti-hellenic comments. I wonder where this came from?

    Are those your real names?

    Sure there is not an 'ovski' in there somewhere?

    John
  • Jogn posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 03:47:19 - Reply

    @Justinian

    The link you are providing is from Fyrom nationalist groups, the very same propaganda the historians are protesting against.
  • John posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 03:42:42 - Reply

    and many many more

    See the list in www.macedonia-evidence.org
  • John posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 03:41:00 - Reply

    @Justinian (Fyrom nationalist) The list includes the most recognised historians in the world

    June W. Allison, Professor Emerita, Department of Greek and Latin, The Ohio State University (USA)
    Ronnie Ancona, Professor of Classics, Hunter College and The Graduate Center, CUNY (USA)
    John P. Anton, Distinguished Professor of Greek Philosophy and Culture University of South Florida (USA)
    Dr. Norman George Ashton, Senior Honorary Research Fellow, The University of Western Australia (Australia)
    Lucia Athanassaki, Associate Professor of Classical Philology, University of Crete (Greece)
    Harry C. Avery, Professor of Classics, University of Pittsburgh (USA)
    Dr. Dirk Backendorf. Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur Mainz (Germany)
    Elizabeth C. Banks, Associate Professor of Classics (ret.), University of Kansas (USA)
    Alice Bencivenni, Ricercatore di Storia Greca, Universit
  • Justinian posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 03:02:42 - Reply

    @ John:

    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html#obamacosigners
    Shows that many of these "authors" are in fact Greek or have close relationships to Greece or Greeks, like Stephen G. Miller. In fact, many of the authors protested to have their names removed from the letter, stating they signed it for different purposes.

    Fair and balanced responses have already been met, like this one:
    http://www.mhrmi.org/news/2009/june09_e.pdf

    Enjoy.
  • Justinian posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 03:02:41 - Reply

    @ John:

    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html#obamacosigners
    Shows that many of these "authors" are in fact Greek or have close relationships to Greece or Greeks, like Stephen G. Miller. In fact, many of the authors protested to have their names removed from the letter, stating they signed it for different purposes.

    Fair and balanced responses have already been met, like this one:
    http://www.mhrmi.org/news/2009/june09_e.pdf

    Enjoy.
  • John posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 02:39:36 - Reply

    400 accredited historians from universities such as Oxford , Cambridge , Stanford , Yale and many more writes

    "the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated."

    Read more of their statement in

    www.macedonia-evidence.org
  • Johnny D. posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 02:37:13 - Reply

    @HerodotusHistories945:

    The former Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis has confirmed himself "from the first moment" he saw "the problem with Skopje in its true dimensions. What concerned me was not the name of the State. The problem for me from the very beginning was that the creation of a second minority problem in the area of Western Macedonia. My main aim was the Republic [of Macedonia] to declare that there is no Slavomacedonian minority in Greece. This was the real key to our differences with Skopje."


    According to former US Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger, "Greece claims that Macedon or Macedonia, as well as Alexander of Macedonia are its own. This is a false claim and it is time someone confirms this." He added, "The Greek claim about Macedonia is based on historically incorrect information and are therefore not fact-based."

    Greece invaded Macedonia in 1913 and now is trying to hide their horrendous human rights record against the Macedonians living in Aegean Macedonia by twisting Ancient History and making foolish accusations against a neighbor to keep them on their heels.

    Greek Orthodox Church members consisted 10% of the Macedonia population in 1913, which at the time was 2 million (hence only 200,000 people identified as Greek or Greek Orthodox Church). To understand how small this population truly was, consider the Asian Minor population settling into Macedonia in the 1920s was approximately 700,000 people. That makes them the majority of Greeks living in Macedonia, yet ALL of the Greeks living in Macedonia state they have roots from Ancient Macedonia and try to hide their true origins.

    Human Rights Watch, US State Department, etc have documented very well the human rights abuses Greece has committed against the Macedonians living in Greece, too deny it is simply parroting the words of your corrupt leaders. Forcing name changes, religious changes, and condemnation on ones origins or face death, torture or deportation. Do I need to remind Greeks of what occurred if a Macedonian were to speak Macedonian language in public? Ahh yes, car oil down their throats. The Greeks even destroyed graves and changed writings in church frescoes to forcefully change Macedonia into something Greek.
  • Johnny D. posted:

    on 25th March 2011, 02:37:12 - Reply

    @HerodotusHistories945:

    The former Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis has confirmed himself "from the first moment" he saw "the problem with Skopje in its true dimensions. What concerned me was not the name of the State. The problem for me from the very beginning was that the creation of a second minority problem in the area of Western Macedonia. My main aim was the Republic [of Macedonia] to declare that there is no Slavomacedonian minority in Greece. This was the real key to our differences with Skopje."


    According to former US Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger, "Greece claims that Macedon or Macedonia, as well as Alexander of Macedonia are its own. This is a false claim and it is time someone confirms this." He added, "The Greek claim about Macedonia is based on historically incorrect information and are therefore not fact-based."

    Greece invaded Macedonia in 1913 and now is trying to hide their horrendous human rights record against the Macedonians living in Aegean Macedonia by twisting Ancient History and making foolish accusations against a neighbor to keep them on their heels.

    Greek Orthodox Church members consisted 10% of the Macedonia population in 1913, which at the time was 2 million (hence only 200,000 people identified as Greek or Greek Orthodox Church). To understand how small this population truly was, consider the Asian Minor population settling into Macedonia in the 1920s was approximately 700,000 people. That makes them the majority of Greeks living in Macedonia, yet ALL of the Greeks living in Macedonia state they have roots from Ancient Macedonia and try to hide their true origins.

    Human Rights Watch, US State Department, etc have documented very well the human rights abuses Greece has committed against the Macedonians living in Greece, too deny it is simply parroting the words of your corrupt leaders. Forcing name changes, religious changes, and condemnation on ones origins or face death, torture or deportation. Do I need to remind Greeks of what occurred if a Macedonian were to speak Macedonian language in public? Ahh yes, car oil down their throats. The Greeks even destroyed graves and changed writings in church frescoes to forcefully change Macedonia into something Greek.
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 21:49:23 - Reply

    I will try and do so more often as soon as people stop trying to ethnically erase my family.

    No one though it was funny when the communists trired this against Greece in 1944 (when western powers staunchly supported Greece both militarily and morally). Call it a hunch. I'm pretty sure the Dutch people would not find it humourous if Germans started referencing their country as "Dutch occupeid Germany".

    Blame Greeks for their fiances but this is not out fault. This is the fault of the smug "experts" tha patronizingly ignored our concerns 20 years ago.
    There is no moral excuses for the behavior of the current FYROM government. Those that help them oppress their ethnic Bulgarain past and threaten Greek territory are no better than the communist tyrants that once did the same.

    Chamberlains the lot of them. Greek-hating trollers that "generously" give away someone else's identity and territory for the sake of alleged peace. They will not get it. 20 years later the matter isn't even close to being settled because FYROM is trying to build an identity on entirely fabricated history. Evidence of their ethnic Bulgarian past wll never go away. All they (and their apologists) are doing is destabilizing the balkans.






  • alan posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 21:32:16 - Reply

    HerodotusHistories945 - you need to get out and have some fun.
  • HerodotusHistories945 posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 21:22:36 - Reply

    Rather than offer a shred of actual evidence, frankly the smug non-points by a couple of the posters seems to be racist gibberish masquerading as reason.

    First off dears, why do FYROM nationalists (and their apologists) hide the fact the vast majority of their so-called "ethnic Macedonians" ancestors used to freely self-identify as ethnic Bulgarians? Even FYROM's own government officials used to admit this (something individuals like you "forget" as they build giant Alexander statutes.)

    e.g.
    "The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." - former FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

    "And whether Bulgarian consciousness exists in Macedonia, this is a historical legacy. We’re now writing our history. We can’t write that until 1940 we were Bulgarians and after 1940 Macedonians.” - Krste Crvenkovski (President of the Central Committee of the Union of Communists in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) to Todor Zhivkov (First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Bulgaria) – May 19, 1967.
    http://tinyurl.com/y2n846j

    And 180 degrees contrary to the bizarre claims of what "Barry Drew" assurances about what "everyone believes"... countless accredited scholars and western governments have also claimed that "ethnic Macedonians" are a modern invention.

    e.g.
    ""This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece." - U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26 Dec. 1944 http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

    e.g.
    "The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim.[...] The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians." - Loring Danforth, "The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995

    Mr Drew boldly claims "Everyone knows the Greeks had nothing to do with Macedonia until 1913"

    Pure nonsense. There is Ottoman census data showing Greeks existed in that region even under Ottoman rule Furthermore there is a good reason why there is Greek writing one the ancient Macedonian artifacts that the former self-identifying Bulgarians of the former Yugoslavia dig ups. Further reading by HUNDREDS of well accredited university professors from around the world for the "expert".
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

    As for your claims about Greeks having "no connection".... once again you have things exactly backwards "Barry". We have language, location, cultural and even (as modern DNA is proving) a biological connection. It is YOU that has next to nothing in common with your claimed ancestors but are so ethnically insecure about yourself you have to spread hatred towards Greeks.

    "Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Persians, Chinese and Japanese could be cited as examples of ethnic continuity, since, despite massive cultural changes over the centuries, certain key identifying components—name, language, customs, religious community and territorial association—were broadly maintained and reproduced for millennia." [Nationalism and Modernism, 2003, Anthony D. Smith - Cambridge University Press page 191]

    The Greek question has a longer history in Turkey. Greeks have lived in Anatolia for millennia, especially along the Aegean coast. For a while, under Alexander, they dominated the land. And for all intents and purposes, the Byzantine Empire (the Eastern Roman Empire at the time) was Greek. When Mehmct 11 conquered Constantinople, he appointed a Greek monk to the orthodox Patriarch and allowed him to govern both the religious and secular affairs of the Greek community. The first Ottoman census, of 1477, counted half of Constantinople’s population as Greek, and four-hundred years later, even after the Greek War of Independence, it was still 21 percent Greek." - Lowenthal, David (1998). The heritage crusade and the spoils of history. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.

    Those that claim its just a petty dispute over a name are just Greek-hating liars. Do Greeks object to Macedonia USA? Athens Georgia? Its common sense there is more issues involved than just the name.

    Three wars have been fought over Macedonia. FYROM nationalists (who actually live in ancient Paeonia) are blatantly obviously attempting to usurp ancient Greek symbols and using them to insinuate Macedonia Greece is "occupied territory". (with endless maps and references of "United Macedonia", "Greek-occupied Macedonia", and "Macedonia for the Macedonians". Much like their communist ancestors (which America once defended Greeks from) they are manipulating human rights groups, media outlets, and foreign diplomats by saying one thing publicly to them... while encouraging their citizens to see another person's homeland as "occupied"

    Sorry I'm not buying any of the anti-greek drivel. It is not a human right to attempt to usurp the identity and territory of people in another country.

    Shame on those that are not only seemingly helping the FYROM government oppress their very own ethnic Bulgarian heritage (much like Yugoslav communists did) but seemingly out to subtly ethnically erase Greeks. Racism is apparently alive and well in the 21st century.
  • nato posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 21:19:18 - Reply

    Ahh, how does the modern Grecian Republic explain the fundamental NATO clause on mutual defense that Macedonia would be obliged to?

    The Parties of NATO agreed that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America[note 1] shall be considered an attack against them all. Consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence will assist the Party or Parties being attacked, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

    that makes your allegations null
  • Kouz posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 20:52:51 - Reply

    Well said Will Smith except for the part that you call Macedonia a 'backwards' nation. By referring to a normal country by that word, makes you stand on the same level as those pigheaded Greeks.
  • toni cambio posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 20:50:02 - Reply

    And that is Greek counter argument? Macedonia has irredentist propaganda? who they are fooling? so pathetic Greece is NATO member plus and their argument can be easy proven wrong with 1913 Bucharest peace agreement when Greece for the first time acquired the biggest chunk out of Macedonia ,nowhere before that they have had any part of Macedonia region because they never existed as nation , if you ever have met Greek you would know that they still live in ancient time in their head that is ...can wait to lough at their face when decision is made
  • chris posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 20:49:18 - Reply

    Right on Barry. Call yourselves Slavic Macedonians and Slavic Macedonia and there is no problem. Call Thessaloniki that and there is no problem.

    And yes the composition of greek population of Macedonia in thessaloniki varied through modern history but mainly due to murderous acts of the turks and the bulgarians.

    By the way I am macedonian but also greek and my people have lived in western macedonia for generations. My fatther's and grandparents town and the towns nearby all greek macedonians. We are not refugees and we are not slav macedonians. Yet you and your slavic macedonian brothers believe we do not exist and yet we are millions. Yet you believe we are slavs that are traitors to your cause. According to you, we do not know who we are. But yet you do and you did not even have a codified language till 1945. Even the term Aegean Macedonia is a recent invention.

    You believe that there were no greek macedonians of any significant number in Macedonia through out the turkish occupation nor even now. Only at least a million or so slav macedonians who have been tricked or forced for economic etc. reasons to believe and pretend that they are greek macedonians. Now tell me who has been tricked or forced to believe who they are.
  • els posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 20:40:54 - Reply

    Well said Barry. I am amazed that the Greeks, after the last years and the debt, corruption and financial schananigans uncovered, in which they all seem to have played some part, have any right to say anything negative anout anyone.

    In fact, they should apologise to Macedonia for causing damage to its people and nation and start making positive amends towards their neighbours. Perhaps then someone will gain a tiny bit of respect for them?

    I wonder in which circle of the Inferno would Dante place them....
  • Barry Drew posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 18:53:01 - Reply

    Greece uses Macedonia as an escape goat, knowing they are the most corrupt country in europe and the most in debt country in europe they distract Greeks by picking on Macedonia.

    The history is already written Alex: The World knows Macedonia was mostly (Slavic) Macedonians, Jews in Thessaloniki and Turkish until 1913. Everyone knows the Greeks had nothing to do with Macedonia until 1913, where they destroyed the then composition of Macedonia in order to make it Greek.

    Greeks look foolish to think that the Western countries buy into this, considering most of the Greeks in current Macedonia were from Asia Minor or Crete and have no connections to the ancient Macedonians. It is true, the (Slavic) Macedonians have lived in Macedonia longer and that cannot be re-written.
  • Will Smith posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 18:46:28 - Reply

    Having just spent the last 4 years working with Greeks, I now understand that they are as pigheaded about this issue as everything else in their lives. They should either get with the international program or crawl back into their ancient hole and quit trying to pretend they are a modern, advanced society - they aren't they are stuck farther in the past than any other nation in the Balkans. The Greeks have much bigger issues to worry about than what a small backwards nation wants to call, themselves. This issue is an entire waste of everyone's time and money. Who cares what the Macedonians in Skopje want to call themselves. Greece get a life!
  • Alex posted:

    on 24th March 2011, 18:26:37 - Reply

    Exactly what bearing on this case does the number of countries that recognized the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia by their desired name have on this case?? All educated individuals know the residents for who they have always been. History cant be re-written to accomodate the future political aspirations of the former Yugoslavs.