13 reactions to this article

Kathleen posted: 2009-07-08 14:16:53

Thanks for this video.

One thing (it was pointed out briefly), is that once you get away from the big cities, not EVERYONE speaks English, and none of the signs are in English. It is important that you know some of the language for daily living! I live in a small town in the southern part of the country, and really needed to learn the language to just go to the supermarket.

Good luck to everyone learning, it's NOT easy, but the rewards are being able to communicate with the locals on a daily basis.

Jay posted: 2009-07-10 08:55:11

You're living in another country for one reason or another. It's arrogant to assume that people should speak your language just because they can. THEY are not being rude, YOU are. You must insist on speaking Dutch when the Dutch reply in English. If you feel left out, that's just too bad for you. This is part of immigrating. The reason for learning Dutch is not because of emergencies, it's because you live in the Netherlands; otherwise, perhaps you should go home.

Kathleen posted: 2009-07-10 16:31:25

Wow, that was a bit harsh I think Jay. Have you tried "insisting" that folks speak Dutch when they answer in English? I think they are more happy to practice their English than to help you with your Dutch... I never assumed that I wouldn't have to/need to learn the language, and I don't think the folks in this video assumed that either.

Jay posted: 2009-07-11 15:48:00

Of course it's harsh. Isn't it harsh to expect the Dutch to not speak their own language. As a native-English-language speaker, it's disturbing to hear any other native complain about how difficult and inconvenient it is to learn another language, in this case, Dutch. It's certainly fun, interesting and necessary to discuss with other Dutch-language learners about what it's like, but to get annoyed at the Dutch is immature and arrogant.That occurs in the video subtly. I watched it again just to make sure my initial response wasn't some disproportional reaction. <br /> It's naive to think that the Dutch are solely "happy" to practice English. Don't you see the power dynamic in that? It's not that the Dutch want to "practice" their English, they want to impress you with their English and remind English-speakers that they don't speak other languages. I used to think the way you surmise, but have since been told otherwise by Dutch friends who are as appalled by their own countrymen's behavior as immigrants are. It's to impress you, not to practice with you. <br /> By the way, yes, I used to insist that they speak to me in Dutch. That's how I learned much more than I did in classes. Check out the video again at about 4:00 minutes when the blond woman expresses annoyance at how people don't speak English at a dinner-party. The speaker hostess gave the correct answer, "It's a good reason to learn Dutch."

Ann Brown posted: 2009-09-03 06:26:11

I agree to some extent with Jay\\\'s observations, and I would go a step further to say that the blond woman\\\'s attitude is indicative of most (not all) Americans\\\' attitude to anything foreign and \\\'not American\\\". In this case, the \\\"non American\\\" thing is the Dutch language.

As an illustration of my point, I am a native English-speaker and I find it so obnoxious how most Americans (once again, not all) will not even attempt to understand a British, Australian, New Zealand, Caribbean or African accent.

Most Americans simply refuse to acknowledge that the other native English speaker is actually speaking to them in English, and would insist that YOU try to sound more "American".

At the beginning of this clip, I was quite amused at how "Americanised" the blond lady spoke in Dutch, "vier mensoooon" 0:44 sec (mind you, my accent in Dutch is far from sounding native, but at least I try to do an approximation).

Likewise, the cavalier and dismissive way in which she justified not being interested in learning Dutch because most persons are just gossiping anyway, to me is not a convincing argument to not learn the language.

My personal belief is that if you intend to live in the Netherlands for the long haul whether to be with your spouse or for love of the country, it is in your best interest to have some knowledge/control of Dutch.

It is a totally differenct scenario for expatriates who are solely in the country because of a job and will be leaving after 3-5 years. In this case, I could see there being less of an incentive to learn Dutch, as they will be moving on to another country when the job assignment changes.

However, for others like myself who are building families with a Dutch partner and actually intend to spend the rest of our lives here, it is imperative that we learn Dutch. By not doing so, we run the risk of living in a very small, boxed-in world wherein we cannot live outside of the urban centres, cannot fully understand what our colleagues are saying around us, having only "Expat friends" or cannot fully utilise the employment opportunites,and in essence feeling marginalised, living on the fringes of the "real Dutch society".

For me, it does not take the Dutch government saying that \\\"Dutch is a Must\\\". Intrinsically, for myself and for my unborn children, I know that speaking and understanding the language is important.

Jay posted: 2009-09-30 13:32:27

Ann, it's a pretty gross generalization about Americans insisting that other native-English speakers use an American accent. I could understand there would being a few Americans who believe/say that, but I've never heard that before reading your post. As an American myself, I'm very critical of my countrymen's centeredness (everyone should always question authority and try to look objectively at the things they embrace as a component of their 'identity'). That centeredness is one of the reasons why I don't belong there. I call it 'arrogant ignorance' when someone believes their way is THE way. Of course, this could apply to so many different nations, languages and cultures...and of course everyone's favorite social topic; it can be said of religion too.
On the other hand, because the Americans are more verbal, the world just loves to point their finger to States. The US has always served the function of European blame-shifting and European denial of internal social problems, but now the internal problems are truly in Europe's face and they're climbing off their high-horses, it's changing a bit...perhaps a bit too late though.
Nevertheless, back to learning Dutch: I agree with you about the difference between transients and ones who settle in NL. I just think this entire question is an insult to any host country. In the same token, I think the host country should really question itself about how accommodating it could/should be without questioning its own credibility or esteem. Yes, who's going to speak Dutch when they're on holiday? No one. A guest worker should make concerted efforts to get through stores and some other situations encountered daily. People like us who immigrate and settle should master Dutch as much as possible and make it part of their lives because a decision was made with long-term extended consequences (sometimes across generations). And that goes for every immigrant PERIOD!
The notion that learning a language improves your chances is, of course, dependent on many other factors that cover zeitgeist, economy, racial prejudices and all the other things we don't like to admit to have an effect on decision-making. However, not learning the language gives one no chance at all. In addition, being an immigrant or even the 2nd generation does not and should not lead to expectations of one being as successful as someone who originates from the host country. It's a very naive illusion to think success is based solely on merit despite ‘afkomst’. Get over that nonsense. I, for one, don’t want the dikes managed and monitored by anyone who cannot prove that their ascendants’ blood and sweat isn’t somewhere nestled within those structures. Some things are truly left to the ones who literally grew out of the local soil.
It took three generations on my father's side and two on my mother's side before I could get to university in the States. Immigration has long-term extended consequences...I wish people would have more realistic expectations before unnecessarily tearing down the best situation they'll probably ever have in their lives. Otherwise…do everyone a favor and go back home.

Ann Brown posted: 2009-09-30 14:52:24

Dear Jay, thanks for your response, as it promotes intelligent discourse. Allow me to react to each point in your reply.

1. It is indeed an over-generalization to state that ALL Americans insist that other native English speakers sound more "American-ised" in their speech/accent. For this reason, I qualified each statement in my original post with the caveat, "NOT ALL" Americans think this particular way. By extension, my observations were in no way finger-pointing and should not be interpreted as an attack on American values and/or way of life.

2. I concur that success in a host country (or integration) is impacted by other factors such as racism, xenophobia and nationalism. Likewise, it is naive to think that merit and solely one's educational level is sufficient to guarantee success. In light of all these challenges, the need to know the Dutch language becomes all the more pertinent.

3. I think it is a bit antagonistic (and condescending even!) to remark that Holland may have been the "best situation they'll probably ever have in their lives...go back home".

Immigrants originate from different socio-economic backgrounds and some may genuinely lack the capacity "integrate" (for lack of a better word), as such the Dutch government needs better formulated policies to attend to the marginalized groups in society.

Therefore, the recommendation to "do everyone a favour and go back home" is a simplistic one (the American immigration experience shows the fallacy of this type of reasoning).

Jay posted: 2009-10-01 00:02:53

Dear Ann, yes, it is refreshing to publicly share these thoughts in an intelligent manner. Although, a face-to-face discussion always permits verbal footnotes and specific qualifications/clarifications more easily.
I didn't read that you were speaking in absolutes about ALL Americans at all. I guess it's just been so long since I've heard a new annoying thing about my countrymen's behavior that I felt it needed to be balanced out a bit. I'm very weary of the negativity from people about the place, and I'm very weary of Americans themselves for causing most of the justifiable criticism and hate. I guess I felt the need to make that statement for whatever reason...
About being condescending and antagonistic: I don't know Ann. When I compare my life with those of my friends who stayed at home, at the end of the day, I've been better off for a number of reasons. There is a more humane working situation in NL, affordable healthcare, affordable housing, the ability to travel easily, the absence of pressure to perform and all that 'go-get-em' garbage they stuff down your throat there (I've heard some similar, albeit much less intense pressures from my UK friends too). I'm sure there are immigrants who would be better off at home if they aren't in NL voluntarily or if some situations at home are better or improved, but face it, there aren't many immigrants who think things are better where they came from, certainly not financially better even before the current 'crisis'.
I know, of course, that various socio-economic backgrounds comprise the Medelander group, and integration is a load of horse-hooey if you ask me, particularly in a culture "waar je doet het nooit goed". However, if you do want to compare it to the American immigration experience, then you cannot deny that the struggle of various immigrant groups that were promised nothing from the US government meant is was a select population that knew this beforehand and did their best for the next generation, expecting nothing more than a chance. This was different in Europe, where both allochtonen and autochtonen laid back and drank from the fountain of eternal mediocrity on the dole and developed no skills whatsoever. Yes, this has shifted a bit over the years.
I do think that there are a number of EU countries that make it too easy for people to immigrate. There are lies promised, there's the illusion from Europeans themselves that they're immune to certain social problems, there's the constantly fluctuating sense of cultural identity that make integration a vague abstract out-of-date concept that is increasingly growing to mean absolutely nothing to most people in the world today. Hence, the religious fundamentalists (Christian and Muslim) have breeding ground with the marginalized groups.
I'm not sure the "Dutch government needs better formulated policies to attend to the marginalized groups in society" I think the Dutch government needs to be honest about its limitations and stop with the condescending attitude that it can solve all these problems.
Less than 10 years ago, I sat in a small working group at a mental health agency I worked at. One of the questions posed to the group was what the agency should do with the foreign patients. How could they better serve them? Eyebrows were raised and the group was disbanded shortly after I suggested that the agency and the schools do more to stimulate foreign/immigrated students to work in mental health care and thus directly answer the needs of their own community. I couldn't believe how novel that idea was to them. My point is, everyone should really stop with any illusions they have about immigrating and integration and this pushing around and blame-shifting for who should be doing what is a viscous circle. Immigration is a lot of work, a lot more than most can handle. With that realization, I think there would have been a different type of immigrant (still from the same countries) to Europe over the years.
Some people should go back home if they don't like the menu choices and the restaurant should stop deluding itself into thinking that it can cook up anything anyone wants. And this, Ann, is what I mean when I say that people should go home…as an option, not as a rejection.

Ann Brown posted: 2009-10-01 16:29:18

Dear Jay,

I share some of your opinions about immigrants and expats (the term I use to describe our transient friends) that solely gripe and complain about the host country. It was the annoyance I felt after hearing the lady, a.k.a The Blond Woman in the posted video, that compelled me to respond on this forum.

With regards to the Dutch government being honest with the limitations in its immigration policies, I concur wholeheartedly. There is covert discrimination and latent inequity in some of the policies which inevitably lead to the scenario that we are now having (as illustrated by the Blond Woman).

For instance, I am from a developing country and I was required to sit and pass the Civic Integration Exam (entirely in the Dutch language) in my own country and pay 830 euros BEFORE I was granted a temporary resident permit (MVV) to even step aboard an aircraft destined to the Netherlands. After which, there is the mandatory Inburgering.

Most of the above requirements are not mandatory for persons migrating from the US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and the rest of Europe.

My point is, with such categorization of immigrants and the subsequent disparity in the treatment of both groups, there is bound to be tension and there is bound to be resistance. I will loosely place these categories into two groups; nationals from developing countries and the Blond Woman.

The Blond Woman represents the double standard that is inherent in current Dutch policy, since under the law, based on her country of origin, she is not required to sit the Civic Integration Exam abroad, nor is she pressed to follow the Inburgering after arrival.

As such, it is not surprising when she/this group says (with haughtiness I might add) "why must I learn Dutch? Everyone speaks English here, all the Dutch people do when they speak in Dutch is gossip anyway...at the parties they fell back into Dutch ". As such, the Dutch must always speak English to her, and not her to speak Dutch to them! It is DUTCH policy which is partly to be blamed for this ethnocentrism!

Jay, my friend, this is why some of the incessant nagging and complaints from some immigrants about how they don\'t living in the Netherlands occur (when they know that their quality of life is vastly improved compared to where they were living before coming to the Netherlands).As you stated, the EU (inclu. Netherlands) makes it too easy for certain categories of people to immigrate.

In the meantime, the second group I referred to earlier, nationals from developing countries feel coerced into the whole "Dutch is a Must!" campaign and remove your headcloth/burqa/hijab etc whilst the Blond Woman category seemingly get a easier time.

Perfect recipe for tension and discord.

That is my two cents on the whole hodgepodge of a situation.

Jay posted: 2009-10-01 19:13:46

What a great conversation Ann. I had it easier back in 1990, as did everyone. It was my own insistence that people speak to me in Dutch, it was my own persistence in learning Dutch and my own curiosity about the culture that brought me to where I am...apparently your motivations were also very high. That process you went through does make you a select population.
The ethnocentrism is so apparent that it's amazing they don't always see it themselves. But then again, the NL is going through its own transitions that has pulled them out of the ideologies of the 20th century in the West.
Yes, her attitude is annoying and the reason why I jumped into this forum (for the same reason I addressed your comment about the American(s) you met who mentioned non-American accents).
The disparity in the way foreigners are dealt with is a shame and never really discussed. For example, I'm not 'officially' considered an alloctone because I come from a Western country. Strange no?

It seems they need to invite us to one of those interviews. Ha...I'm not so sure I can carry this out in Dutch as articulately as I am now. In any case, I've got to run to class and want to thank you for this discussion. Pity other people don't join in. Maybe in the future...Be well.

Ann Brown posted: 2009-10-01 21:02:17

Dear Jay,

The pleasure was all mine! I quite enjoy stimulating discussions such as these.

As for me being a part of the interviews, they would probably deport me after I am done, or Geert Wilders would take an interest in my radical and unconventional opinions.

Anyhow, take care.

One Love

jonboy posted: 2010-03-18 15:38:47

As somebody who is moving to the netherlands in a couple of days, i hope i can remain more optimistic about learning the language than the two people in the middle, the guy on the right seemed enthusiastic and upbeat about the discussion, the other two just seemed intent on bitching about why there was no point trying, not really a good advert for learning the language!

Roger posted: 2011-07-15 09:42:54

This myth about Dutch being "hard" needs to go away. It's not hard, it's just unfamiliar, unlike French, German or Spanish which is taught widely. French is much harder than Dutch for English speakers.

Top of the list for struggling with Dutch is the usual problem of Dutch people wanting to demonstrate their English (annoying since many are not really that good at it), but it can be traversed as Jay said by persisting with Dutch, though this has it's limits when the situation requires quick communication and you're just not at the required level of proficiency. In that respect ex-pats always lose because Dutch people always have a smattering of English, the popular culture of the country is saturated with it. Either that or you're dismissed since Dutch people love speaking English socially, but get uppity when you can't manage the correct Dutch in any official situations.

It's okay for the government (and individuals) to waffle on about the onus being on the immigrant, but it's a two-way street and no progress is made while the Dutch carry on their moronic love affair with Steenkolenengels and speaking in brand names and ready-made English phrases from films and the telly.

I learned Dutch in Belgium ten years ago, and perhaps it's the Francophone influence, but there people don't look nonplussed and confused when you start speaking Dutch and don't sound like a newscaster from Het Journaal. The Dutch need to learn that people will have accents; English people are used to listening to foreigners speak English with an accent and seem to not care that pronunciation is different, that sometimes it's even something pleasant to listen to.