Mon, 28 May 2012
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Blogger Jeremy Holland learns about the origins of his adopted city and why Catalunya and Spain are worlds apart.
It gained its formal independence from France in 1258 with the Treaty of Corbeil; thus beginning the reign of Jaume (James) 1 and the expansion of the Kingdom of Aragon to include Valencia, Corsica and Sicily, and the promotion of Catalan language and culture throughout the territories. 
The author says after his very superficial and biased survey of Catalan and Spanish history that Spain and Catalunya are worlds apart. Really?. For most of its history, at least for the last 500 years at least, the destinies of Catalunya and of Spain as a whole have been intimately intertwined. And it is not a question of wars and impositions. As the author himself reminds the reader, Catalunya was part of the kingdom of Aragon, which entered into a dynastic union with Castilla by means of a marriage whose outcome enormously benefited Aragon as a while, since its main foreign policy and economic orientations in the Mediterranean were safeguarded by a larger and powerful political entity. In fact, Catalan interests were defended during our common, yes common, history even to the detriment of other regions ( witness the protectionists laws during the XIX and early XXth century in favour of the Catalan textile industry). As to the Franco years, ask any Spaniard outside Catalonia and they will tell you that most of the regime's industrial policy was aimed at strenghtening the Catalonian economy at the detriment of the rest of Spain. Besides, myths apart, as many Catalans supported Franco as people in the rest of Spain.
By the way, I would ask the author, being an American, wether he thinks that most of Southern USA is worlds apart from the rest of his country. After all, most of that territory ( a third of the current USA) was annexed by war as recently as in the XIX century and its inhabitants are mainly Hispanics. Is the USA an artificial accident of history wating to explode?.
Cataluña is not Spain? Then California, Texas, Florida and many other States are not part of the USA. Neither are Scotland, Wales and Norther Ireland part of the UK or Corsica, French Catalonia, French Basque Country part of France. Agree?
One more thing. The author says that Spain is not a unified country. Well, sorry, you have to get back to school. Together with Portugal Spain is the oldest unified state in Europe (1492). When was the UK forcibly created against the will of the Scots or the Irish? in 1701 and later, and Italy and Germany? at the end of the XIX century. And France? Until the French Revolution, when more than two million people were killed in a succesful effort to create a unified State that did not exist under the Ancien Regime. Not to talk about the US ( which of course is not in Europe but whose inhabitants seem to know everthing about other countries)
Good job Jeremy, looks like you pissed off some¨ historians¨ who actually read this crap. Like our country, this country is full of immigrants and refugees. Catalunya is not Catalunya or Spain..walking around the streets of BCN all I see are Morrocans, Gypsies, and Laitn Kings..LOL Catalunya, Spain, or whatever you want to call this third world country
wow -- thanks for the impassioned responses.
first of all luis, you are correct 500 years of history condensed into 3 pages is superficial and the relationship between Catalunya and spain is complicated and based on mutual interest.
but the fact is: ask local residents here where they are from, and most will make a point to say Catalunya and not Spain. they will say they speak catalan and not spanish and will talk about the hard working characteristics of the catalans compared to the lazy rest of spain. they will even deny taking siestas! it is the reason nationalist and independence parties hold the majority of seats in the regional government.
now, do i personally think there\'s much difference? No. do i think that nationalism is a political tool? yes. But the fact is the many of people I have met here over six years here do feel different and this synopsis is why. In fact some of the most hardcore nationalists are children of spanish parents who came here in the fifties, which shows i think the societal pressures. and as an american, where people still claim to be irish 300 years later, I find this hard to understand. then again, I find the whole idea of nationalism strange.
as for your question about the US. yes, I do view people from the south as different country. from a different plant in fact. there are many in the south who think the president is a muslim, god created the universe and the government wants to euthanize old people. these are not americans. (sorry republican) in fact there are still people from the south who would like to secede from the union. the difference is they tend to be fringe groups, while in Europe theyre mainstream.
As for the scots and welsh being part of the UK. true. but ask them if they are english and see the response
Apparently you learned nothing, which is a big shame. And yes, I'm an History Major which has attended classes in History of the Crown of Aragon.
ES LO QUE HAY! lol
I have lived in Tarragona for 7 years or so,having retired from England. My grandson was born here and he starts school, at the age of two years and nine months,in about 3 weeks.
At school he will be taught in Catalan only.ALL of his lessons will be in Catalan. Very laudable you may think but just what use is it to him? Hardly an international language,is it,not like Spanish. Outside Catalunya,it is useless. It is just stupid nationalism,like teaching Welsh in schools in Wales. I worry that it will hold back his education as it is one more thing to learn and too time consuming. Very selfish of the powers that be!
Again..need I repeat myself...ES LO QUE HAY! The only Spanish I have learned or need to understand the situation here..LOL with your kid in this thiird world country..get out while you can!
To address our friend Luis...I'm also an American and I understand our author was limited by time and a lack of long-term exposure to the Iberian peninsula in his above history. However, the parallel between the American South and Catalunya is completely inaccurate. Do I consider the South to be "worlds apart" from the North? No, actually, thy're not. There are many differences but an entirely different language (aside from some bad grammar and strange pronunciation) and centuries of independent culture is not one of them.
Beyond this, the statement that the South was "annexed" by the North is incorrect. The South had a voluntary member of the United States since its inception. It's secession is much different than the claimed independence of Catalunya which has a long history of independence and/or autonomous rule. Also, some simple research will tell you that the south is not even close to being comprised of "mostly Hispanics." That's just simply not true.
If you're going to criticize others for misunderstanding your history then perhaps you should understand theirs before throwing around "facts" that are clearly not true.
Catalonia and Spain (in fact, Castilla) are certainly worlds apart. The long history of repression against Catalonia and the History (not to confuse with the one teached by Franco regime), the attacks against the language (trying to divide the Catalan language actual domains) and today's fascist demonstration supported by Spanish Governement which has caused shame in some Euro Parliamentarians, shows we are worlds apart.
See you.
I think the reason that this article attracted such a strong reaction is that it fails to see that there is a big difference between identity and the political solution to identity - i.e. between 'nation' and 'state'. Nation is one of those hard to define concepts that basically consists of a large bunch of people who live in roughly the same place and share traditions, culture and/or language etc. There is a catalan nation - that's for sure. But it doesnt not automatically follow that this has to result in an independent state. Look at the trauma that the creation of independent states created in the Balkans. The fact is that there are thousands of people in Catalunya who don't want independence - these people have varied backgrounds and reasons -some are catalan through and through - some are from other parts of spain, some are immigrants etc. At the same time those who think that catalunya would be better off independent are often quote diverse too - not all from Emporda!
and lets not forget the agnostics - the thousands who don't give a shit - they just want jobs and a safe place to raise their kids.
The important thing is to recognise that all these people hold these beliefs for legitimate reasons - their opinions are all equally valid (I exclude from this those whose opinions are based on bigotry, prejudice or violence). Whatever political changes are made in the future it needs to be recognised that there is this huge variety of opinion and that everyone has the right to be accommodated in some way. In Northern Ireland they called this 'parity of esteem' - that is that all viewpoints should be treated as being equally valid.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter how similar or different catalans and 'spanish' are - croats and serbs were almost indistinguishable until the 1980's. All that matters is that they work together to create a society where everyone can express their identity freely
In order of catalan history, you have forget to speak about Sardinian Kingdom, or may be you have make confusion betwen Corsica and Sardinia. I remember you that it's not the same country. Sardinia is this big island, the second one of the mediterranean sea just a little detail....
Super.. I am a catalan born, living in Nevada. I am very proud to see that some Americans are interested in our cultura. Its great to read about Catalunya.
Moltas Gracias y que tinguis un bon dia
As an "outsider" looking in, it was a bit of a mistake by the author to describe Spain and Catalunya as "worlds apart" (unless of course he purposely wanted to create a polemic and therefore improve his hit count). By European standards they are quite similar and have a lot in common. And Spain itself is made up of very diverse regions, each fiercely autonomous, so it is slightly hypocritical to treat Cataluña as different and the "rest of Spain" as homologous.
I like it very much. It's not tru they are worlds apart but Catalunya is autonomous. It's not a bad thing.
Visca Catalunya
How can you compare USA and it's states with Spain and it's provinces?
It will not fit.
Catalunya has it's very own language which is the official language in schools, shops (read the labels), street names, television, and not least spoken.
How many states in the USA have their own languages in a way that makes it official? I believe none.
And yes, Catalunya is not Spain.
The author lives in Barcelona, which is very cosmopolitan.
I live in the heart of the country side, and I hear the Castillian spoken mainly on the Spanish telvision channels, even then, more often than not with Catalan subtitles.
As for our American readers, Europe is a teritorry boiling with nationalism, the result of hunders of years of wars and occupations.
And rightly so. The ethnic groups in Europe have their very own culture, art, music, language. Thei did not all migrate to the promised land, instead their ancestral line goes back thousands of years in the same teritorries.
Well, Cataluña claims independence?? From where, from whom? Last time I checked in real history books, there are many more other territories in Spain that have more rights to claim independence for historical reasons. Shall we start?: Aragon, Asturias, Leon, Granada, Valencia, etc. Cataluña stops at a point in history which benefits them to support their independece by manipulating and reinterpreting history.
Spain unification is one of the oldest in the world and it was achieved in peaceful terms through marriage and agreements. Nobody "conquered" Cataluña by force to belong to Spain. If the author and the majority of catalans read history as it is, they will notice that even the king of Aragon and the "catalan" noblemen agreed on the union of the two main kingdoms: Aragon and Castilla.
Any other territory in Spain, Italy, Germany, France has more rights to claim independence for historical reasons than Cataluña.
Good, it is intresante as he says somewhere here someone; that someone of out is interested in the history of my NATION.
What does not seem already to me of receipt is to give him kicks to the History Universasl, to the History of Spain, and to the History of Catalonia. And the bad thing of all this is that we politicise for political interests (Securing of the vote and the imposition of the Federalism as way of Government in Spain), for stupid interests in that all that the whole world does pineapple to join, The separatists or independistas try to do an ocean with a water drop.
I that I am of Aragonese roots, settled down in cataluña already does more than 48 years I will say to you that never not in times in which It Was governing Franc, I have felt so suppressed like now for the made meor from feeling a Spanish Catalan; and to want to use my language in a ground that while the opposite is not said belongs to the Nation of Spain.
That is like that and there is nothing any more that to say l I concern.
And as example I will put that not only there is Independentistas in Catalonia, if or also in Canaries, Aragon, Galicia, Basque Country, etc. But that is as if now a community Of cherolys (Nation India, as you for league and trdición), relamara the grounds and the indeendencia of the United States of America.
As if in the Persian Gulf, the settlers of Iran and Iraq of the ancient Sumeria were asking he one to return them the Ottoman empire.
It is or Utopian absurdity, and nothing more, and that on the other hand it is unviable; and I put like marry the siguoiente he asks: were they paying to 53 % of Spanish who have not even wanted to listen to the word Estatut the properties that three and four generations have found it hard to them to acquire, for to be independent?: for this what does 53 % believe that that thing about to become independent has not even case raising it?
As for the History of Catalonia, it is not not of hint so ancient, but if we apply the concepts modrnos to the ancient territories since then .. i that have antiquity; it looks in that moment of the history appears Catalonia with unified territory, languages and traditions ... and edges that it does not do so much .. XVIth century earlier.
The territory of that today we name as Catalonia, they were a few counties that kings Carolingios granted to a few Counts, in order to defend the zone of the Muslims (Caliphate of cordoba) and it was called then the Hispanic Mark (he reads something on that please).
At the same time Ribagorza arose and sobarbe, in addition to a County so-called Aragon (That turned into Kingdom later) .Pamplona and Biscay they were forming the border between the Francs (Aquitania and Septimania) and the Muslims of the Caliphate of Cordova.
It is then when it was predominating over the domain between these Counties, that of Barcelona that by means of marriages and agreements those of Urgell were acquired, and others of minor importance and power.
Come unmomento of the history, there marry The princesareina of Aragon PETRONILA and the count of Barcelona RAMON BERENGUER the IVth which for the jurisdictions of aragón was never a King, if not prince spouse and regent until his son male heir had the adulthood (In this case ALFONSO II), and only in case the Pricesa of aragón, and his Children were dying.. Ramon Berenguer IV would obtain the King's Crown (thing that did not happen, since the first one died and had to manage Petronila.).
From there, and I am not going to enter the controversy of Catalono-Aragonese or aragaoneses-Catalans ... for that it never existed, since with ALFONSO II that it existed like kingdom was the Kingdom of Aragon of major importance and Heraldic status.
Aunuqe always existed the nobiliary title of Count of Barcelona up to the exticcion of the same one with King Catolico Fernando I of aragon and that along with Elizabeth II of Castile unified the territory of the Iberian peninsula, creating the Kingdom of Spain.. and like that it would continue up to the satiety with papers in the hand .. and not with partidismos of.... POLITICIANS and EXTREMISTS.
Do you imagine that the Englishmen would say if the Aragonese should say that the children of Enrrique VIII with Catalina of aragón are the only ones that had the right to the Crown of England, and that now were claiming to be lors Kings of this Nation?
He ended up by reigning one that theoretically was not a legitimate son.
And gentlemen, leaving of side certain tendencies ... let's leave the history in peace, and if we want to be poiticamente independentistas iempre with the truth ahead.
A greeting A Very Catalan Aragonese who has always felt as such.
The author says after his very superficial and biased survey of Catalan and Spanish history that Spain and Catalunya are worlds apart. Really?. For most of its history, at least for the last 500 years at least, the destinies of Catalunya and of Spain as a whole have been intimately intertwined. And it is not a question of wars and impositions. As the author himself reminds the reader, Catalunya was part of the kingdom of Aragon, which entered into a dynastic union with Castilla by means of a marriage whose outcome enormously benefited Aragon as a while, since its main foreign policy and economic orientations in the Mediterranean were safeguarded by a larger and powerful political entity. In fact, Catalan interests were defended during our common, yes common, history even to the detriment of other regions ( witness the protectionists laws during the XIX and early XXth century in favour of the Catalan textile industry). As to the Franco years, ask any Spaniard outside Catalonia and they will tell you that most of the regime's industrial policy was aimed at strenghtening the Catalonian economy at the detriment of the rest of Spain. Besides, myths apart, as many Catalans supported Franco as people in the rest of Spain.
By the way, I would ask the author, being an American, wether he thinks that most of Southern USA is worlds apart from the rest of his country. After all, most of that territory ( a third of the current USA) was annexed by war as recently as in the XIX century and its inhabitants are mainly Hispanics. Is the USA an artificial accident of history wating to explode?.
Cataluña is not Spain? Then California, Texas, Florida and many other States are not part of the USA. Neither are Scotland, Wales and Norther Ireland part of the UK or Corsica, French Catalonia, French Basque Country part of France. Agree?
One more thing. The author says that Spain is not a unified country. Well, sorry, you have to get back to school. Together with Portugal Spain is the oldest unified state in Europe (1492). When was the UK forcibly created against the will of the Scots or the Irish? in 1701 and later, and Italy and Germany? at the end of the XIX century. And France? Until the French Revolution, when more than two million people were killed in a succesful effort to create a unified State that did not exist under the Ancien Regime. Not to talk about the US ( which of course is not in Europe but whose inhabitants seem to know everthing about other countries)
Good job Jeremy, looks like you pissed off some¨ historians¨ who actually read this crap. Like our country, this country is full of immigrants and refugees. Catalunya is not Catalunya or Spain..walking around the streets of BCN all I see are Morrocans, Gypsies, and Laitn Kings..LOL Catalunya, Spain, or whatever you want to call this third world country
wow -- thanks for the impassioned responses.
first of all luis, you are correct 500 years of history condensed into 3 pages is superficial and the relationship between Catalunya and spain is complicated and based on mutual interest.
but the fact is: ask local residents here where they are from, and most will make a point to say Catalunya and not Spain. they will say they speak catalan and not spanish and will talk about the hard working characteristics of the catalans compared to the lazy rest of spain. they will even deny taking siestas! it is the reason nationalist and independence parties hold the majority of seats in the regional government.
now, do i personally think there\'s much difference? No. do i think that nationalism is a political tool? yes. But the fact is the many of people I have met here over six years here do feel different and this synopsis is why. In fact some of the most hardcore nationalists are children of spanish parents who came here in the fifties, which shows i think the societal pressures. and as an american, where people still claim to be irish 300 years later, I find this hard to understand. then again, I find the whole idea of nationalism strange.
as for your question about the US. yes, I do view people from the south as different country. from a different plant in fact. there are many in the south who think the president is a muslim, god created the universe and the government wants to euthanize old people. these are not americans. (sorry republican) in fact there are still people from the south who would like to secede from the union. the difference is they tend to be fringe groups, while in Europe theyre mainstream.
As for the scots and welsh being part of the UK. true. but ask them if they are english and see the response
Apparently you learned nothing, which is a big shame. And yes, I'm an History Major which has attended classes in History of the Crown of Aragon.
ES LO QUE HAY! lol
I have lived in Tarragona for 7 years or so,having retired from England. My grandson was born here and he starts school, at the age of two years and nine months,in about 3 weeks.
At school he will be taught in Catalan only.ALL of his lessons will be in Catalan. Very laudable you may think but just what use is it to him? Hardly an international language,is it,not like Spanish. Outside Catalunya,it is useless. It is just stupid nationalism,like teaching Welsh in schools in Wales. I worry that it will hold back his education as it is one more thing to learn and too time consuming. Very selfish of the powers that be!
Again..need I repeat myself...ES LO QUE HAY! The only Spanish I have learned or need to understand the situation here..LOL with your kid in this thiird world country..get out while you can!
To address our friend Luis...I'm also an American and I understand our author was limited by time and a lack of long-term exposure to the Iberian peninsula in his above history. However, the parallel between the American South and Catalunya is completely inaccurate. Do I consider the South to be "worlds apart" from the North? No, actually, thy're not. There are many differences but an entirely different language (aside from some bad grammar and strange pronunciation) and centuries of independent culture is not one of them.
Beyond this, the statement that the South was "annexed" by the North is incorrect. The South had a voluntary member of the United States since its inception. It's secession is much different than the claimed independence of Catalunya which has a long history of independence and/or autonomous rule. Also, some simple research will tell you that the south is not even close to being comprised of "mostly Hispanics." That's just simply not true.
If you're going to criticize others for misunderstanding your history then perhaps you should understand theirs before throwing around "facts" that are clearly not true.
Catalonia and Spain (in fact, Castilla) are certainly worlds apart. The long history of repression against Catalonia and the History (not to confuse with the one teached by Franco regime), the attacks against the language (trying to divide the Catalan language actual domains) and today's fascist demonstration supported by Spanish Governement which has caused shame in some Euro Parliamentarians, shows we are worlds apart.
See you.
I think the reason that this article attracted such a strong reaction is that it fails to see that there is a big difference between identity and the political solution to identity - i.e. between 'nation' and 'state'. Nation is one of those hard to define concepts that basically consists of a large bunch of people who live in roughly the same place and share traditions, culture and/or language etc. There is a catalan nation - that's for sure. But it doesnt not automatically follow that this has to result in an independent state. Look at the trauma that the creation of independent states created in the Balkans. The fact is that there are thousands of people in Catalunya who don't want independence - these people have varied backgrounds and reasons -some are catalan through and through - some are from other parts of spain, some are immigrants etc. At the same time those who think that catalunya would be better off independent are often quote diverse too - not all from Emporda!
and lets not forget the agnostics - the thousands who don't give a shit - they just want jobs and a safe place to raise their kids.
The important thing is to recognise that all these people hold these beliefs for legitimate reasons - their opinions are all equally valid (I exclude from this those whose opinions are based on bigotry, prejudice or violence). Whatever political changes are made in the future it needs to be recognised that there is this huge variety of opinion and that everyone has the right to be accommodated in some way. In Northern Ireland they called this 'parity of esteem' - that is that all viewpoints should be treated as being equally valid.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter how similar or different catalans and 'spanish' are - croats and serbs were almost indistinguishable until the 1980's. All that matters is that they work together to create a society where everyone can express their identity freely
In order of catalan history, you have forget to speak about Sardinian Kingdom, or may be you have make confusion betwen Corsica and Sardinia. I remember you that it's not the same country. Sardinia is this big island, the second one of the mediterranean sea just a little detail....
Super.. I am a catalan born, living in Nevada. I am very proud to see that some Americans are interested in our cultura. Its great to read about Catalunya.
Moltas Gracias y que tinguis un bon dia
As an "outsider" looking in, it was a bit of a mistake by the author to describe Spain and Catalunya as "worlds apart" (unless of course he purposely wanted to create a polemic and therefore improve his hit count). By European standards they are quite similar and have a lot in common. And Spain itself is made up of very diverse regions, each fiercely autonomous, so it is slightly hypocritical to treat Cataluña as different and the "rest of Spain" as homologous.
I like it very much. It's not tru they are worlds apart but Catalunya is autonomous. It's not a bad thing.
Visca Catalunya
How can you compare USA and it's states with Spain and it's provinces?
It will not fit.
Catalunya has it's very own language which is the official language in schools, shops (read the labels), street names, television, and not least spoken.
How many states in the USA have their own languages in a way that makes it official? I believe none.
And yes, Catalunya is not Spain.
The author lives in Barcelona, which is very cosmopolitan.
I live in the heart of the country side, and I hear the Castillian spoken mainly on the Spanish telvision channels, even then, more often than not with Catalan subtitles.
As for our American readers, Europe is a teritorry boiling with nationalism, the result of hunders of years of wars and occupations.
And rightly so. The ethnic groups in Europe have their very own culture, art, music, language. Thei did not all migrate to the promised land, instead their ancestral line goes back thousands of years in the same teritorries.
Well, Cataluña claims independence?? From where, from whom? Last time I checked in real history books, there are many more other territories in Spain that have more rights to claim independence for historical reasons. Shall we start?: Aragon, Asturias, Leon, Granada, Valencia, etc. Cataluña stops at a point in history which benefits them to support their independece by manipulating and reinterpreting history.
Spain unification is one of the oldest in the world and it was achieved in peaceful terms through marriage and agreements. Nobody "conquered" Cataluña by force to belong to Spain. If the author and the majority of catalans read history as it is, they will notice that even the king of Aragon and the "catalan" noblemen agreed on the union of the two main kingdoms: Aragon and Castilla.
Any other territory in Spain, Italy, Germany, France has more rights to claim independence for historical reasons than Cataluña.
Good, it is intresante as he says somewhere here someone; that someone of out is interested in the history of my NATION.
What does not seem already to me of receipt is to give him kicks to the History Universasl, to the History of Spain, and to the History of Catalonia. And the bad thing of all this is that we politicise for political interests (Securing of the vote and the imposition of the Federalism as way of Government in Spain), for stupid interests in that all that the whole world does pineapple to join, The separatists or independistas try to do an ocean with a water drop.
I that I am of Aragonese roots, settled down in cataluña already does more than 48 years I will say to you that never not in times in which It Was governing Franc, I have felt so suppressed like now for the made meor from feeling a Spanish Catalan; and to want to use my language in a ground that while the opposite is not said belongs to the Nation of Spain.
That is like that and there is nothing any more that to say l I concern.
And as example I will put that not only there is Independentistas in Catalonia, if or also in Canaries, Aragon, Galicia, Basque Country, etc. But that is as if now a community Of cherolys (Nation India, as you for league and trdición), relamara the grounds and the indeendencia of the United States of America.
As if in the Persian Gulf, the settlers of Iran and Iraq of the ancient Sumeria were asking he one to return them the Ottoman empire.
It is or Utopian absurdity, and nothing more, and that on the other hand it is unviable; and I put like marry the siguoiente he asks: were they paying to 53 % of Spanish who have not even wanted to listen to the word Estatut the properties that three and four generations have found it hard to them to acquire, for to be independent?: for this what does 53 % believe that that thing about to become independent has not even case raising it?
As for the History of Catalonia, it is not not of hint so ancient, but if we apply the concepts modrnos to the ancient territories since then .. i that have antiquity; it looks in that moment of the history appears Catalonia with unified territory, languages and traditions ... and edges that it does not do so much .. XVIth century earlier.
The territory of that today we name as Catalonia, they were a few counties that kings Carolingios granted to a few Counts, in order to defend the zone of the Muslims (Caliphate of cordoba) and it was called then the Hispanic Mark (he reads something on that please).
At the same time Ribagorza arose and sobarbe, in addition to a County so-called Aragon (That turned into Kingdom later) .Pamplona and Biscay they were forming the border between the Francs (Aquitania and Septimania) and the Muslims of the Caliphate of Cordova.
It is then when it was predominating over the domain between these Counties, that of Barcelona that by means of marriages and agreements those of Urgell were acquired, and others of minor importance and power.
Come unmomento of the history, there marry The princesareina of Aragon PETRONILA and the count of Barcelona RAMON BERENGUER the IVth which for the jurisdictions of aragón was never a King, if not prince spouse and regent until his son male heir had the adulthood (In this case ALFONSO II), and only in case the Pricesa of aragón, and his Children were dying.. Ramon Berenguer IV would obtain the King's Crown (thing that did not happen, since the first one died and had to manage Petronila.).
From there, and I am not going to enter the controversy of Catalono-Aragonese or aragaoneses-Catalans ... for that it never existed, since with ALFONSO II that it existed like kingdom was the Kingdom of Aragon of major importance and Heraldic status.
Aunuqe always existed the nobiliary title of Count of Barcelona up to the exticcion of the same one with King Catolico Fernando I of aragon and that along with Elizabeth II of Castile unified the territory of the Iberian peninsula, creating the Kingdom of Spain.. and like that it would continue up to the satiety with papers in the hand .. and not with partidismos of.... POLITICIANS and EXTREMISTS.
Do you imagine that the Englishmen would say if the Aragonese should say that the children of Enrrique VIII with Catalina of aragón are the only ones that had the right to the Crown of England, and that now were claiming to be lors Kings of this Nation?
He ended up by reigning one that theoretically was not a legitimate son.
And gentlemen, leaving of side certain tendencies ... let's leave the history in peace, and if we want to be poiticamente independentistas iempre with the truth ahead.
A greeting A Very Catalan Aragonese who has always felt as such.
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